Mixing Orchestral Stuff

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Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Lipskimusic » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:54 am

Dear All,

I have got a comprehensive question regarding orchestral stuff and how to mix it. I realise that when I pan the instruments as per the 'seating chart' of an orchestra I am ending up with more perceived high mid range information on the left side as e.g. first and second violins would 'sit' there (and most of the other high range instruments would also 'sit' on the left side of the stage such as flutes, trumpets and bells).

How do you approach this? Or do you ignore the seating chart and mix the orchestra as you would mix any other instrumental in order to pan / balance the frequency distribution in a commensurate fashion?

I would really appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers,
Matt

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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by hummingbird » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:45 am

Hi, very good question.

I will look at the seating chart but the primary focus for me is always balance in the mix.
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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Lipskimusic » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:02 pm

Pvgeldrop wrote:Hey Matt,

With orchestral, the thing to keep in mind (I suspect) is that even though the seating arrangement provides a ready balance in the placement, as a listener you don't normally sit directly in front of the orchestra itself. The acoustic experience of a decent orchestral hall also provides plenty of ambience and reverb, providing a more natural blend of the different instruments. Some libraries also provide different listening/mic positions to accomodate this (I use them in the Hollywood Orchestra libraries, for example). So I suspect it's a very different kind of mixing compared to other styles. :-)
I'm also interested in more experienced members sharing their views on this, it's an area I'm very interested in.

Paul
Hi Paul,

I agree. And, I already tried to give the stage its 'depth', i.e. put the violins to the front and the trumpets to the back (which helps a bit). But still it seems a bit unbalanced rigorously imitating the 'stage/seating position' without drenching everything in reverb.

Really curious what the experienced members have to say.

Kind regards
Matt

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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Len911 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:17 pm

When you set the output of each instrument to Program, they automatically have the panorama position they would have in a real orchestra.
That's a quote from Steinberg Halion Symphonic Orchestra

You are the creator, and for a small ensemble it doesn't matter so much, but for an orchestra, people who do orchestral mock ups for realism will notice, and will probably comment that the violins are in the 'wrong' position.

In general bass is less directional and usually centered. It really depends how realistic a sound stage you want. You could certainly pan a drum set far right, bass far left, singer @ 9 o'clock, piano @ 2 o'clock.... If you had a video of the band, it might be odd having things panned opposite of where the instruments were on stage.

You should also note how panning might affect phasing and frequency masking, especially if there are stereo tracks.

Balancing the frequency spectrum?? Is that really a thing or just a fashion? It's like sound moving from left to right, although there's no reason it can't move from right to left. Or having the same loudness in the left channel as the right, is this a rule? Why? Why couldn't you have the main dry signal on the left channel and all the reverb tails on the right channel at a lower volume?

It's basically sort of a creative versus convention argument.
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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by MattCurious » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:54 am

Agree with the above - in a lot of (most?) libraries, the orchestra is already recorded with the instruments in the "right" position.

Additionally, I got to work with two pro engineers at the end of last year on EDM and and orchestral trailer - and neither of them touched the pan controls.

Best wishes
Matt
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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Len911 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:21 pm

Additionally, I got to work with two pro engineers at the end of last year on EDM and and orchestral trailer - and neither of them touched the pan controls.

Best wishes
Matt
That's interesting Matt, because you might think that those would be a couple of genres where panning differently might actually be advantageous.
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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by ernstinen » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:40 pm

I used to play oboe in huge orchestras, so here's my take!

My aural image is from the audience's perspective (maybe that's obvious!). Many orchestras have different seating arrangements, like putting the second violins to the right of the conductor (I saw the L.A. Philharmonic do that). But I stick to the regular way of seating (from left): 1st violins; 2nd violins; violas; celli; and double basses (for strings). So that would have the higher strings panned more left. BUT, playing oboe in orchestras, there are various ways to seat woodwinds. They basically sound pretty much coming from the center, behind the violas. Percussion can be panned anywhere you want them, in the rear of the ensemble. So let's say if you want the orchestra bells more right to the rear, there's nothing wrong with that. It's really up to the conductor where they are! You can also place the bass drum and tympani more left rear if you want... Trumpets are center right rear, and lower brass to their right.

Bottom line is this: The conductor can seat (other than the 1st violins and double basses) pretty much anywhere he/she wants to put the different sections. Different orchestras have very unusual placements of certain instruments, so since "you" are the conductor in your mixes, by all means pan most of the more rear-line instruments where you want to. Just keep the sections consistent, other than percussion, which can be placed anywhere in the stereo spectrum.

My 2 cents,

Ern

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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Lipskimusic » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:50 pm

ernstinen wrote:I used to play oboe in huge orchestras, so here's my take!

My aural image is from the audience's perspective (maybe that's obvious!). Many orchestras have different seating arrangements, like putting the second violins to the right of the conductor (I saw the L.A. Philharmonic do that). But I stick to the regular way of seating (from left): 1st violins; 2nd violins; violas; celli; and double basses (for strings). So that would have the higher strings panned more left. BUT, playing oboe in orchestras, there are various ways to seat woodwinds. They basically sound pretty much coming from the center, behind the violas. Percussion can be panned anywhere you want them, in the rear of the ensemble. So let's say if you want the orchestra bells more right to the rear, there's nothing wrong with that. It's really up to the conductor where they are! You can also place the bass drum and tympani more left rear if you want... Trumpets are center right rear, and lower brass to their right.

Bottom line is this: The conductor can seat (other than the 1st violins and double basses) pretty much anywhere he/she wants to put the different sections. Different orchestras have very unusual placements of certain instruments, so since "you" are the conductor in your mixes, by all means pan most of the more rear-line instruments where you want to. Just keep the sections consistent, other than percussion, which can be placed anywhere in the stereo spectrum.

My 2 cents,

Ern
So you would agree that panning like that leads to the rather unusual result of having a 'lead instrument' (e.g. first violins - depending on the arrangement) panned to the left and the bass panned to the right. This seems a bit odd since even in smaller ensembles say in a string quartet the cello (i.e. the 'bass') seems to always sit in the 'middle' (as we would pan it in a pop song production).

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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by Lipskimusic » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:46 am

Pvgeldrop wrote:Hey Matt,

Pondering upon your question, I started digging around a bit and found these articles:

http://mattiaswestlund.net/?page_id=254
http://mattiaswestlund.net/?page_id=440

They deal specifically with virtual orchestras, placement and reverb. Definitely gave me a few guidelines for future orchestral cues!

Paul
This is so great, Paul! Many thanks :)

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Re: Mixing Orchestral Stuff

Post by mojobone » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:52 pm

Lipskimusic wrote:
ernstinen wrote:I used to play oboe in huge orchestras, so here's my take!

My aural image is from the audience's perspective (maybe that's obvious!). Many orchestras have different seating arrangements, like putting the second violins to the right of the conductor (I saw the L.A. Philharmonic do that). But I stick to the regular way of seating (from left): 1st violins; 2nd violins; violas; celli; and double basses (for strings). So that would have the higher strings panned more left. BUT, playing oboe in orchestras, there are various ways to seat woodwinds. They basically sound pretty much coming from the center, behind the violas. Percussion can be panned anywhere you want them, in the rear of the ensemble. So let's say if you want the orchestra bells more right to the rear, there's nothing wrong with that. It's really up to the conductor where they are! You can also place the bass drum and tympani more left rear if you want... Trumpets are center right rear, and lower brass to their right.

Bottom line is this: The conductor can seat (other than the 1st violins and double basses) pretty much anywhere he/she wants to put the different sections. Different orchestras have very unusual placements of certain instruments, so since "you" are the conductor in your mixes, by all means pan most of the more rear-line instruments where you want to. Just keep the sections consistent, other than percussion, which can be placed anywhere in the stereo spectrum.

My 2 cents,

Ern
So you would agree that panning like that leads to the rather unusual result of having a 'lead instrument' (e.g. first violins - depending on the arrangement) panned to the left and the bass panned to the right. This seems a bit odd since even in smaller ensembles say in a string quartet the cello (i.e. the 'bass') seems to always sit in the 'middle' (as we would pan it in a pop song production).
I'm pretty new to orchestral VI mixing and have mainly played in the sorts of large ensembles that don't feature strings, but my understanding and I think Ern can back me here, is that a visiting conductor wouldn't use the same seating chart for Mahler as for Wagner or for Italian operas of the baroque period. The orchestra's been around for a while and there are various regional and period quirks, so I'd say there's some room for interpretation. If you're doing the 1812 Overture you could use bass drums, you could use cannons; context is everything. Soloists are often seated directly in front of the conductor, so it's probably okay for lead voices to all be panned more or less center; what you don't want is a first violin getting up and walking across the soundstage in the middle of everything.

And another word about panning; it IS pretty straightforward, if you're using equal power panning, but linear is the default of many DAWs. With linear panning, a sound produced by both speakers (ie panned center) is twice as loud, cuz you've doubled the acoustic energy. (+3dB SPL) THAT ain't gonna sound natural in an orchestral work and will mess up your perspective, with everything panned to the middle sounding all swollen.
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