About orchestral "realism"

[jeralddrai]

Hi there, its me again

what did you think about this orchestral track ?
Sounds kind of realistic for you ?

// Update : last version : http://soundcloud.com/jerald-drai/imperial-waltz

i'm trying to make it better, but ... i'm kind of lost, i've spent to many hours on this i guess

Thanks for your constructive comments !

By the way, this is for this listing :
New Listing ORCHESTRAL INSTRUMENTAL CUES in a variety of Moods, Tempos, and Ensemble size are needed by a very well-established and successful NON-Exclusive Music Library that's new to running Listings with TAXI. This company is owned by two highly-experienced Film and TV music veterans, and it's expanding its catalog due to increased demand. They're looking for believable-sounding Orchestral Instrumental Cues that you'd hear in popular shows like (but not limited to) Shark Tank, My Great Escape, The Bachelor etc., etc., etc. Please listen to the following references to get an idea of the wide range of styles they're looking for:

[jeralddrai]

Thank you Paul,

Yes, articulations and "spacialisation" (sorry i don't know the specific word...)
I've tried to get depth in the mix but i'm not so sure about what i do with my pans and reverbs on each instruments

i don't make enough big "virtual" orchestra music, i'm just sure about that

[jeralddrai]

Thank you so much Paul, your answer is so interesting for me !

Thanks to your advices, i will try to bring this track to the next level

My suggestions could be considered nitpicking, if you're looking for more realism.

Your suggestions are just perfect, it really make sense for me

Suffice to say that realism using VIs often includes a lot of keyswitches and manually adjusting articulations to your liking. What VI are you using?

I'm using Ark 2 (from Orchestral Tools) but i think there's lot of things i don't make right with articulations on the parameters...
I'm a classical trumpet player and that true that bowing technics are almost chinese to me.

The worst thing is that I played trumpet in orchestra a decade ago, but making a virtual orchestra sounds (more or less) like a real... what a time-consuming job O_o

[artturner]

Hi Jerald, thanks for sharing your track!

When I'm using MA2, I usually use the single articulations instead of keyswitching the multiple articulation patches.

For example, I would probably record the strings in the opening section with a spiccatissimo articulation to give them some more separation. In the next section, I'd use the legato patches to record the high string line. Also, under the legato horns starting around 0:48, I might try mid strings spiccatissimo under them keeping that original rhythmic motif going.

Anytime the strings are holding a note, you probably need to go into your DAW's piano roll view and draw in MIDI CC1 curves to sculpt the intensity of the notes. A held note that doesn't change in some way is a quick giveaway that it's MIDI. As an example (and shameless self-promotion), you can hear this (in a totally different style track) starting around 1:05 here: https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/the-return-home You can even see it in the waveform.

Depending on the sound you're going for, you might want to add additional percussion, more of a 16th note feel...just clicks and clacks and other things, especially to fill in some of the gaps in energy in the first part. Also the bass drum might need to change up or take a break somewhere.

Finally, the style of this track might need some additional VI's. MA2 is pretty focused on low and ominous.

I hope this helps!

Art

[jeralddrai]

Thank you Art, it's help a lot !
Effectively, i rarely use single patches on MA2 (except when I have very little memory left...)

I'll try to re-work on the track today and make it better, Paul and you gave me so precious advices, thanks again.

here: https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/the-return-home

So impressed by the subtilities and the movement in your strings lines
What a great track ! Did you make it with MA2 ?

Depending on the sound you're going for, you might want to add additional percussion, more of a 16th note feel...just clicks and clacks and other things, especially to fill in some of the gaps in energy in the first part. Also the bass drum might need to change up or take a break somewhere.

Finally, the style of this track might need some additional VI's. MA2 is pretty focused on low and ominous.

Yes, i definitely want to try something on this !

[jeralddrai]

Hi Jerald,

Glad to help! It's not easy to get a realistic sound, so I'm happy to share anything I can think of.
Try Youtube and searching for 'violin bowing techniques', it'll help get an idea of most articulations you'll find in a lot of VIs.

I'd love to know more about brass techniques myself, that's an area I know very little about.
Perhaps we could try collaborating on a cue, combine what we know? Do you use notation software, or do you record directly?

Paul

yes ! we can try in the future that's a good idea
Except for jazz & jazzy moods tracks where i always record my trumpet, i effectively use notation software and banks even for brass.
They really mix better with other instruments than my takes

About Daws, i'm working in Pro tools since always and i just start using Logic Pro X this year.
Yes, tell me if you wanna try something on a cue, i'm not sure about doing different than you do yourself but, its always interesting to share about !

Thanks for all Paul.

[Len911]

The percussion seems to be fairly steady like something I might expect in a march or a trailer.

This is more what I imagine in a general orchestral type for percussion
https://youtu.be/R-N0Zr2KBy4?t=2m20s

[mojobone]

A string line is always getting softer, getting louder, vibrating, trilling or portamento-ing itself to some other note, cuz players are human and we get bored; hardest thing in the world for a human player to do is to execute a static line, we just can't help ourselves, same goes for vocals and oboes. So that's indeed the first giveaway, and why I like to play in the parts as much as possible when using MIDI and VIs.

Depth is an interesting concept and sound designers and programmers have been doing a lot with spatialization lately. There are also plenty of old-school tricks for manipulating that; what I find most difficult in mixing virtual instruments is in achieving a sense of height. I've thought of using a dummy head [HRTF] for a track or two just for the folks on earphones. I find that LCR panning hepls prevent phase issues when blending samples from different libraries. Stacking two or more reverbs is something I intend to try in the near future though I already kinda do that with the pop stuff; I'm still pretty new to orchestral.

The thing about soundstage realism is this; where does the dance happen? It doesn't happen on the floor nor the balls of one's feet, but in the air. The picture we paint in the mind's ear is what matters most; get the perspective right and the listener will suspend disbelief. It also helps if the music itself is compelling, and by compelling, I mean it moves you either emotionally, spiritually or physically.

[jeralddrai]

The percussion seems to be fairly steady like something I might expect in a march or a trailer.

This is more what I imagine in a general orchestral type for percussion
https://youtu.be/R-N0Zr2KBy4?t=2m20s

You absolutely right, simples timpani and "march" drums could be better for this style !
Thank you

[jeralddrai]

I also use notation software for orchestral tracks, Sibelius in my case. I find it easier to compose and arrange for orchestra than directly recording.
I use Cubase 9 as a DAW, but we could try composing/arranging scores first, then exchange audiostems when recording. It would be a first time for me to collaborate like that with someone, but it could be fun and very educational; I'd be very interested in how you'd handle brass sections!
Let's keep an eye on the listings and see if there's something in February/March that would work for this; personally, having a deadline to work towards helps me to keep busy.

Yes, we could try !
I'm better with a deadline too
I do not have too much visibility on my work to come at the moment, so I hope I will be available at the right time.