Cardinal points pan law

[playagibson]

Hi Rich, I know Terry and stumbled on LCR while surfing the net and have applied it to some of my earlier tracks but now since using a lot of midi VST's it kind of depends on the overall mix now. if the midi VST comes panned and its in stereo I tend to leave it unless an instrument really sounds better panned far right or left. I play it by ear. but definitely if I pan its either hard left or right now.

LCR is great to keep in mind when spreading guitars and strings to give more space for vocals, kick and bass. LCR seems to work well with mono tracks. if you want a special effect to pop out in a mix then 50% left or right. of course I'm just a beginner so not an authority on mixing or producing.

Btw I live in Nassau also. Funny thing is I posted a mix done LCR on FB and Terry liked and commended on it. Then I found the article on Terry about the Cardinal Points. small world.

Hey Gavin,
Your name is familiar.
I've been gigging with Steve Holden and Tommy Goodwin while in Nassau.
I did some recording at Comfortably Numb studios. ( you know him )
Come by La Hippica on Thursdays or Compass Point Sunday or Tuesday and say hello.
I'll be heading back in May.
Rich.

[2lane]

I've been doing this on my metal tracks for some time, but not others, I
think now I'll do it on all tracks.
I've found that you have to push the fader harder when you do this. Is there
maybe a panning setting in the DAW to fix this, or just push it harder...anyone know?

Cheers,
Steve

[davekershaw]

Not tried this, but will on my next mix.
Thanks for the post Rich.

[playagibson]

I've been doing this on my metal tracks for some time, but not others, I
think now I'll do it on all tracks.
I've found that you have to push the fader harder when you do this. Is there
maybe a panning setting in the DAW to fix this, or just push it harder...anyone know?

Cheers,
Steve

I wouldn't stress about pushing the faders as long as it isn't clipping.
The biggest mistake we all make is thinking loader sounds better.
Usually adjusting the compression , reverb and eq will fix that.

[andygabrys]

I've been doing this on my metal tracks for some time, but not others, I
think now I'll do it on all tracks.
I've found that you have to push the fader harder when you do this. Is there
maybe a panning setting in the DAW to fix this, or just push it harder...anyone know?

Cheers,
Steve

Most DAW's have a "pan Law" which most hardware consoles do too.

If a track is panned center let's call that 0.0dB.

When you pan a track hard L or R all that energy ends up on one side and in a DAW can clip, In DAW's its most usual to find -ve pan laws.

so for a pan law of -2.5 dB
center is 0.0 dB
hard left is -2.5 dB
hard right is -2.5 dB

So other settings allow for pan law of 0.0 or a pan law where the center postition is +ve compared to the hard L+R.

Logic defaults to -3.0 db
Protools 10 and above has a number of pan laws you can choose - the default is -2.5 dB. they also do -4.5 dB and -6dB. -4.5 dB is supposed to be the same pan law as an SSL console.

anyways, what does it mean practically (to me anyways?)

if you have a guitar that is overrunning a vocal, and you pan it hard left, you have not only moved it in the stereo spectrum giving them each a space, you have actually turned it down by an amount equal to the pan law.

If you have a mono button on your interface or monitoring, hit it with the vocal and the hard panned guitar solo'ed. all of a sudden the guitar will be back in the center with the vocal but is a fair bit quieter.

anyways, something to experiment with.

[Russell Landwehr]

There are some styles of music where this "law" is not a law. One in particular I am working on being the "House" genre. There are some elements that are panned LCR but there are more elements that are just Big Stereo. Of course technically those are panned center but heard LR? hehe... so maybe the "law" applies to this too eh?

One thing you gotta watch about panning stereo signals, is that panning doesn't generally move both sides of the stereo signal over to one side. What it does is just turns one side down. There are, however, plugins and ways to get around this.

Russell

[playagibson]

Cardinal law refers mostly to mono tracks.
Stereo tracks are usually spread out by virtue of mic placement and remain centre.
I played some recordings of music mixed by Terry and you can definitely hear how he practises
what he preaches.
I noticed the overhead drums were panned hard left and right and the rest stayed centre.
The horns bk vocals were all panned hard.
Guitars were both left and right.
The bed tracks sat in the centre.
The mixes are all annoyingly clean.

[Russell Landwehr]

The mixes are all annoyingly clean.

That is what I LOVE about LCR mixes. When I go back through my CD (record) collection, just about every one of my favorites were mixed this way.

[rdance]

"The advice he gave me was the Cardinal points law, which is left-centre-right panning only and to make it sound good in mono."

thanks for posting this rich. i also recently learned this from an engineer i've been working with. hard pans, and ALWAYS checking it in mono (which is how the world hears it a lot of the time, in grocery stores, hotel lobbies, clock radios, smart phone speakers, etc)

actually we often mix in mono and then check hard pans...sounds weird but it works.

ps...nice work location you have there!

[davekershaw]

Logic defaults to -3.0 db
Protools 10 and above has a number of pan laws you can choose - the default is -2.5 dB. they also do -4.5 dB and -6dB. -4.5 dB is supposed to be the same pan law as an SSL console.

I asked about pan laws quite some time back. No-one (who answered) seemed to bother with them, but it's important if you're collaborating, to make sure you're each using the same pan law. My original question was "which setting did most people use?"
Even if you're just working alone, the pan setting must make some difference to the way you work.

Sonar's default is 0 dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power. "This choice causes a 3 dB boost in a signal that’s panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned."

Yet I read somewhere (Sonar X2 Power, I think) that -3.0DB is recommended, as it's the most widely used choice.

Anyone here using to a particular setting?