Edit points...A 'must read" now!!!

[admin]

Hi guys,
I just scanned this thread and have probably missed info that may already be in here. And remember, I'm not a composer, I just help them earn a living

After I quit making records, I did audio post at HSR/NY, the preeminent audio post house in NY, if not the country at the time. Sadly it closed after 36 years. Check out the photo of me in my youth (circa 1987) in this 3 year old article I wrote about mixing to stems.

http://www.taxi.com/transmitter/1105/cr ... stems.html

In any case, back in those days, if we used library music for a :30 TV spot, and it was longer than :29.5, we just did a fast master fader dump by hand to get out in time. That was SOP! I still hear that technique all the time, even in today's world of time/pitch shifting, digital editing, and digital recording. The only reason I can think of is the agency producer loves a piece of music SO much for the vibe it brings, that he/she doesn't care if the editor or audio post person has no edit options available to bring the spot in, in time.

The average consumer/viewer probably doesn't notice the quick dump as much as the overall vibe the music brings to the spot. Before TAXI brought indie composers to the libraries on a large scale, all library music was done by a handful of composers on each coast. They'd write charts, we'd record A-list session players in an assembly line process, and the homogenous sounding tracks were distributed to studios and radio stations of 1/4" tape with paper indexes to find what you needed.

You kids have it so easy today.

Michael

[Russell Landwehr]

Before TAXI brought indie composers to the libraries on a large scale, all library music was done by a handful of composers on each coast. They'd write charts, we'd record A-list session players in an assembly line process, and the homogenous sounding tracks were distributed to studios and radio stations of 1/4" tape with paper indexes to find what you needed.

You kids have it so easy today.

Michael

When I worked in Radio and TV, we had TONS of those Tape Libraries for use in commercials and promos. The cues were provided in :60, :30, :15 and stinger. I think there were occasionally some 2:00 cues.

Yes, Mojo, last night's Taxi TV was a great episode for hearing and understanding edit points. To me the edit points didn't seemed timed, just natural pauses/changes in the music. Although there was one cue that the edit points all sounded like the end of the song... I saw Michael reach for the applause button several times during that cue.

I got in touch with my cousin the editor. Here is what he said. In response to my question:
Q: Heya. A discussion came up between some composer friends of mine about how Film Editors incorporate the music into their process. You do film editing, right? How deep into the process are you? Could I run some questions past you on the subject?

A: "I mainly edit TV and commercials but I may be able to answer your questions.

From my experience, there are a couple ways of working. Most often the editor cuts to temp music from other movies or popular music to get the timing down. The composer then uses the same rhythm and feel to compose his music. The new piece is then cut in and changes are either made to the edit or music to the locked picture to satisfy the director.

The other main way for a strongly music driven sequence is music first and then edit to it but from what I hear, you rarely have this luxury.

Happy to answer further if you have any specific questions."

I sent him some specific questions, and will post them when he gets back to me.

Russell

[jonnybutter]

I sent him some specific questions, and will post them when he gets back to me.

Russell

Thanks Russell (and everyone else!). I will look forward to seeing what he says. My fairly obvious 2c (also from having worked in the b'cast world) is: button endings are super important in the mix of elements because editors backtime from them - and also backtime from hit points. The more good edit points there are on the other side of that backtime, the easier it is to assemble the audio track.

Also, sort of building off of what Michael L. said (nice pic btw!!), I think it's important that you really want to make sure *you* know where you want the listener's attention to focus. The cut may not always be right on the beat, or you may dump out at the end or elsewhere, but - like in a good mix - if the listener knows without hesitation exactly what the producer want them to focus on or 'buy', they will usually do it. The human brain seems to want things to make sense whether they 'really' do or not.

[Russell Landwehr]

The human brain seems to want things to make sense whether they 'really' do or not.

Yes! For example, playing Dark Side of the Moon while watching The Wizard of Oz.

[jonnybutter]

The human brain seems to want things to make sense whether they 'really' do or not.

Yes! For example, playing Dark Side of the Moon while watching The Wizard of Oz.

Yes indeed!

[themichaelscott]

Think about how the sections move from one to another without an obvious break. It can still work by breaking down to an isolated cymbal swell or drum or bass fill. The editors can cut there. If a transition goes over the downbeat it might be more difficult to edit there.

button endings are super important in the mix of elements because editors backtime from them - and also backtime from hit points.

Glad Mazz and Jonny touched on this. I have been thinking of an edit point as a more obvious break. If the editor backtracks from a stinger they can easily start the cue on the first beat of almost any measure right?

The average consumer/viewer probably doesn't notice the quick dump as much as the overall vibe the music brings to the spot.

Once I started paying attention I noticed how harsh alot of transitions are.

Michael

[jonnybutter]

I have been thinking of an edit point as a more obvious break. If the editor backtracks from a stinger they can easily start the cue on the first beat of almost any measure right?

Hey Michael,

Theoretically you can edit anywhere there is a zero crossing, but the listings usually ask for *easy* edit points, so that means on a beat with no overhanging pad or whatever. Beginning of a measure is good, but not always avail. Certainly doesn't have to be an obvious break.

cheers!

Jon