Female pop ballad - feedback please

[mladendomic]

Hi, taxi people,
Here is song I wrote more than year ago. It's my first "female pop ballad" song and it was made for a listing that referred to Christina Aguilera's song "Beautiful". So I took form and instruments from "Beautiful" and tried to make my own song, just for the sake of learning.
And here it is. I would like to ask you to listen to my song "Lost Rivers" and then I'd have few hundred questions for you. But the most important to me is this:
- What is target listing for this one? Female pop? Ballad? Is it contemporary enough?
- What are the disadvantages in artistic and technical sense? What to improve and how?
I would really want to learn this craft. I know a lot, theoretically, but I constantly miss the feedback. Thank you.

[SweetAuburnBluesBand]

Hi Mladen,

Super song! Great vocals

Jeff

[nylyrics]

Hi Mladen:

There are some good things happening here. I think If I heard right, you are not going to chorus soon enough or defining it enough.

It sounded like you did Verse/prechorus/verse pre-chorus/chorus..... was trying to follow along without the lyrics. Why is the song called "Lost Rivers"?

Andy

[mladendomic]

Andy, the structure of the song is exact copy from C. Aguilera's "Beautiful". My idea was to play it safe and not unnecessarily mess with the form.

I was convinced the form is: verse1 - chorus 1 - verse 2 - chorus 2 - bridge - chorus 3 - verse 3.

The title "Lost Rivers" was meant to be metaphoric: the song is written from female perspective and it's about couple who fights but deep inside they love each other. There is no particular reason for that title. It could be something else.

Do you think that the form needs modification? Why do you think it's not working this way? I could add more "build" to song and I sure will.

Jeff,

[nylyrics]

Jeff:

Just from a feeling standpoint - it sounds to me like the Bridge you have could be a chorus. What you are noting now as you chorus has the feeling to me of a pre-chorus. If you want to post the lyrics I may be able to comment more.

I like alot of what is here, i am just not getting the feeling it is organized in the most optimal way. It would be good if others chimed in as well to get some more opinions so hopefully the thrread will get some more comments.

Andy

[mladendomic]

I thought the lyrics are visible on my Taxi page but the link shows to my homepage which doesn't contain lyrics button. Here they are:

Verse 1:
Who is right and who is wrong?
Doesn't matter what you'll say ...
Who is weak and who is strong?
What a childish game we play...

Chorus 1:
Nights are cold and days are dark,
And we're / so tired.
Darling,
Would you let us lose or win?

Be my guest, or be my hero,
Just / surprise me,
Darling,
Please don't give up on our dream.


Verse 2:
Who was left and who is leaving?
We could simply walk away...
We could laugh, but we are crying
Doesn't matter who will stay...


Chorus 2:
Nights are cold and days are dark,
And we're / so tired.
Darling,
Would you let us lose or win?

Be my guest, or be my hero,
Just / surprise me,
Darling,
Please don't give up on our dream.


Bridge:
We could flow like rivers do
Wild and lost without the Sun
We could run like rivers do
Falling deep but never down

I believe we'll find the way
There's no good in counting scars
Yes, I know we'll rise again
Don't deny your stubborn heart


Chorus3:
Nights are cold and days are dark,
And we're / so tired...
Darling,
Would you let us lose or win?

Be my guest, or be my hero,
Just / surprise me,
Darling,
Please don't give up on our dream.


Verse 3:
There's an ancient art of failing
Disbelievers, lost and found...
Close your eyes and you will see
Everything you try to hide.

[mladendomic]

I have to ask you: how do you tell the difference between chorus and bridge? Could there be a pre-bridge? Are these terms determined or arbitrary?

[nick.moxsom]

Hey, Mladen,

I agree and disagree with Andy...

I think there's a really good song here, which I could absolutely imagine Christina (or similar diva) doing justice to, but IMHO you won't get this song past the gate-keepers until you address some issues...

Structure-wise, you absolutely HAVE to cut the intro in half – like, that's the very first thing you do. Picture yourself as the A&R guy who's heard 200 songs today and is running out of time to find THE song. Would you wait 30 seconds to hear a voice come in? I wouldn't. I'd have clicked 'next' before then. There's also that dead section at 1:24. I'd make the chord changes twice as fast and cut the in half too, for demo purposes.

Next on my list... the drums. The fills are too complicated. Strip out everything that interferes. If you listen carefully to current pop, it's all about ear candy – some new aural flavour every few bars. And pop is rarely about virtuoso playing; it's about tastefully supporting that killer voice. So I'd drop all syncopation, if this were mine, and mix up the sonics some more. I'd also lose that electric piano sound at the beginning. And compress the drums and piano – a lot..

The singer's OK, but she's not bleeding. Christina, Rhianna, Adele would be dying inside. If you can get her back, I'd ask your singer to do another take. Failing that, there are at least a few pitch issues which you should fix with Melodyne ('lose' in the pre-chorus at 1:06 is a case in point). Also, if you A/B this against 'Beautiful' you'll notice there's a lot of double-tracking of her lead vocal (aural candy) – you might try the same.

Notice also how the strings vary – in the bridge in 'Beautiful' we go to pizzicato, which would be very effective in your chorus, imo. Those strings, by the way, if they're not actually real strings, sure sound like it. They're played individually, and that cello feels like it's on your lap. Synth chords don't cut it here, I don't think – you need to think like the individual players, and give each line slightly different bowing.

This is where I disagree with Andy – I think your chorus is fine, chordally, but the melody could use some work. Take us up to the highest heights. Note how Taxi listings for diva songs always ask us to give the singer the chance to show off her amazing range – your song is her next career choice, and her career depends on a big, soaring hit. And for that we need a huge chorus. So play around with melodies there, and find the biggest. Always look up rather than down (the scale, I mean).

Ralph Murphy (if you don't know who he is, find him) says that all pop music should be written for women caught in traffic. With that in mind, I would also ditch the minor chords ('on a dream' in the pre- at 1:20). She wants to get home and drink wine, eat chocolate and see her kids, but meanwhile she wants to sing her heart out while she's stuck on the off-ramp. But guess what, she's an accountant, not a trained singer – so keep it simple and let her sound fantastic (at least with the windows rolled up )

Hope this doesn't sound pompous, Mladen, and ignore it if you wish. This is just my opinion. But I've been studying this considerably over the past couple of years, and while I don't profess to be close to success yet, my rule book is well thumbed. Good luck with this – I'm looking forward to hearing the next version.

Sincerely,
Nick

BTW, I LOVE Croatia. I've never been to Zagreb, but have spent many summer vacations in Trogir

[nick.moxsom]

I've never heard of a pre-bridge. Here's a typical structure:

Verse 1 – sets the scene and tells the story (show, don't tell)

Pre-chorus (also know as the ramp) – mostly very short in modern pop, and simply a way of getting from the verse to the chorus as efficiently as possible (eg 'But, baby I ...')

Chorus – is obviously the thing that repeats; that we sing along with and remember most. So ideally, the title of the song is in the chorus, so people can Google it.

Verse 2 – develops the story; often only half as long as the first

Chorus

Bridge (also known as the middle eight) – is oftentimes a departure from the mood – like zooming back and looking at the bigger picture – and a great opportunity to fill in story, or justify the reasons behind the feelings on display

Chorus, Chorus (with a key change, back in the day)

[melodymessiah]

hi.

i've made my own version of your song. dropped the intro and interlude, cut your chorus in half and used it as a build to my own chorus, and added a new bridge. changed the song title. just a rough, very basic instrumental version. you can listen to it here if you like:

https://soundcloud.com/melodymessiah/yo ... al-version.

i think it could be turned into a great song with the right vocal and production.