Return For Bossa Nova Listing Y140627BN. Help!!!

[mobster85]

thanks Neil I appreciate it heart of have and I was not submitted for the bossa nova listing that was for a previous latin listing. Ill work some more. And Thx for the input funsongs. Im gonna work on them both.

[uncbilly]

Agree that the compression has to be dialed back and volume lowered.

The loops I used are not a problem and they are recorded professionally.

There's one caveat that I'd like to make concerning the above statement:

-Imaging - Although played appropriately, The drums sound like they were recorded with multiple close mics as well as OHs above the drums. There's too much discrete-ness to the individual drums. They sound like I'm sitting at the drums, which is perfect for modern pop, rock, etc. But much of what we think of as classic Bossa was recorded "old school" often with a stereo pair for the whole band (about 10-20 feet away from the drums!) and maybe one close mic for the soloist. This one will be tough if you're using samples, but lowering the volume and Compression on the drums will most likely be enough to pass muster in this situation. You might want to also narrow their stereo field by panning the L/R inwards a bit.

A minor note - Guitar tone sounds more akin to an 80's Pat Metheny sound than old school 50's/60's tones. This subtlety may, or may not, be consciously objectionable to a listener, and is arguably appropriate for the style of music (especially given your excellent playing). But it doesn't really do anything to promote the authenticity of the track, either. For full effect, I'd recommend trying a nylon-string guitar.

Great Work!

[funsongs]

Hi Bob,
If it were I, I'd pull back the entire drum mix and don't listen to Peter (sorry, bro') about the snare-- the snare is a minor part of that sound (except for the cross stick).
Best,
Niall

Confession... ... after I listened to the Jesse Cook 'ala's that I'd dug up, I regretted my 'snare' comment; so, props to Niall for calling my bad on that; he's right, and I stunk that one up.
That stated, here's another 'ala'... as an example of great hand-played drums/percussion for this genre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcKcuPWDwxc

Cheers, Amigos.
Peter

[andygabrys]

well you know Bob got a forward for Praia de inverno i believe, so strictly as an A/B comparison, i think you know what the screener was listening for - as the consistent comment (including on mine https://soundcloud.com/andy-gabrys-music/caipirinha - was that the sound needed to be less programmed - or in my case "The compositional aspect of the piece is nicely done, but the recording sounds too programmed and synthy for this vintage bossa pitch."

Praia de Inverno - live acoustic bass, live drums, live piano (or maybe well played midi), live saxophone, real vocals.

that's going to be hard to beat.


my piece (for example): drum loops played by real drummer (for whatever that matters), electric bass (happened to be a sample instead of played live, lazy me), LASS strings, midi piano, vibes, live nylon string and electric lead guitar.

Your piece Bob L - yeah the guitar sound might have dated it a little, but the screener also might not have enjoyed electric guitar at all. The drums? yeah like Peter said, a little hyperactive - maybe a little more sidestick would have been apropos, and the tom feels jumped out front in the mix every time they happened which sounded to me . The bass? def not a traditional bossa nova feel (either 2 feel or the classic like the beginning of Steely Dan's Ricki Don't Lose that Numbah (which isn't bossa nova either so its not only about the rhythm and the notes). The pad in the background? sounds like muted horns now and again, or strings, I don't know. Swap that out for a piano doing something rhythmically appropriate.

Part of the issue (IMO) is that bossa nova I believe to be classically a vocal genre, and the songs are all meant to support the vocal. Are there any great interpreters of Bossa Nova who didn't sing? Let's excuse Charlie Byrd and Stan Getz for a second, and Eliane Elias (although she sings too).

So if you have no vocal, what do you use for a lead instrument? What is going to put the sound over? returning to Getz and Byrd - well, the saxophone works right? Piano works. Nylong string guitar would probably work great especially in a trio kind of feel with acoustic bass and percussion, or maybe add some piano too. Vibes would work if they sounded live. Electric guitar isn't that far out (by a guitarists estimation lol) but you don't hear it very much at all in the classics (and Pat Metheny's stuff sure isn't classic although I love it). So maybe no electric.

What else?

what is the classic bossa nova pad? Strings. obviously they have to sound way more real than my effort for this particular pitch. What else? the 70's bossa stuff like the album Elis & Tom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elis_%26_Tom featured a few of the sounds of the day. Rhodes that was all washed out and nutty sounding, and some some ugly acoustic bass recorded through the amp / pickup which by comparison with the earlier stuff sounds extremely dated - so that's not a good ref. Some of the tunes on that album feature woodwinds - flutes and stuff. That might work but its also a knife edge you walk between making them work and making it sound like a sort of milquetoast version of an oceans 11 tune.

uncbilly was likely spot on as well - the classic tunes by Sergio mendes and such like Mas que Nada etc - they weren't all close mic'ed and in your face. So hard to cop that roomy big and lush feel. And hard to replace a vocal. Rhetorical question: "Is a bossa nova tune sung in english a bossa nova?" there's likely only one in the history of the world and that's Astrid Gilberto's vocal on The Girl from Ipanema. but its only half the tune cause the rest is Portugues.

so I guess what I am saying after all this - this was a really high bar listing, only real would do. and likely electric guitar was a death sentence lol.

just my 39283 cents. Hope its good for a laugh anyways.

p.s. the Jesse cook stuf, as much as I like it, has nothing to do with bossa nova either. its out of the same kinda nuevo flamenco thing that arguably started with the Gypsy Kings and similar and then was co-opted by Ottmar Liebert, Jesse Cook, the more produced efforts of strunz and farah, rodrigo y gabriela etc. - def not the vibe for this pitch, although like I said, it sounds awesome and it grooves.

[mobster85]

Ok Andy i comprende. Possibly just not ready to go for that high of a bar but I am learning and failing and Ill keep swinging. Maybe not just in the Latín genre for a while. I appreciate ur honest critique and ur attention to detail.

[niallyboy]

Hey Andy, et al--

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the importance of the quintessential bossa pattern of: / 2 / 3+ / 1 / 2+ / 4. (dotted quarter hits, starting on beat 2.) I noticed you didn't play that consistently on your submission, Andy, which sounded a little odd to my ears.

My submission, A Flute of Champagne (on my Taxi page) used all live instruments; The feel and realness apparently were okay, but it was returned because there wasn't enough melody-- mostly soloing. The screener was correct, as I sliced and diced another recorded version of a standard to create this submission.

Cheers,
Niall

[andygabrys]

Sharp Niall - that's a good call. One of those things that a real drummer would do by default. Thanks.

Hey on the topic of yours. I have a feeling you could really clean up on these listings if to recorded a few new versions of tunes with purpose built melodies even if they were over standard tune changes.

I.e. Take what you have been doing and go one notch further. This would mean another live session and I understand the $$ angle, but your playing and those of your band mates is great, and like the screener remarked, just missing the melody.

Just an idea.

[jerryjennings]

I like the playing. And the melodies are strong. It's overall a cool sound, but when I think of bossa, I get s alightly different image than what I'm hearing. It should be a little more sparse. I agree with what somebody said about the drums being a little too busy on the first track. I would find a more sparse pattern. And I think the chords are too full on both tunes. Rather than strumming full six-string chords, I would go with less of a strum and more of a claw technique (probably nylon), using the 5th or 6th string for whatever the bass note is, and only adding the third and fourth string to that sound. (in the chord that will give you the 3rds and 7ths.) That leaves out the 5th of the chord, which kind of creates more room. You can strum that too, but you just have more strings to deaden. But again, moving away from the "wall of sound" thing would be a plus, and so I'd go claw rather than strumming.