need microphone advice

[songmaster]

Hey everyone

I am using a studio one 2, and I am having a problem with getting a good full sound. I am using Shure SM58 and a AV-Pro udm-173 microphones. I was looking into a Audio Technica AT2020 studio cardiod condenser mic. in hopes that it would improve my overall sound. I am only interested in a guitar/voice recording and lately it seems to come out thin, with a limited volume. By the time I import it, it loses even more strength ( volume ).

Should I be looking for a better mic. ? I should also mention that I seem to get a lot of ambient noise from my surroundings. But the biggest thing that bugs me the most , is the lack of volume and clarity.

I know that there are many choices for microphones out there, so if you could let me know what works for you, that would help me decide which direction to go. Also, does it really make a difference between a 100 dollar mic and a 500 dollar mic ? or has it more to do with my DAW.

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance everyone.

Tom

[andygabrys]

IMO (and I think many would agree) your DAW makes no difference at all. Think of a DAW as just a tape recorder that doesn't add hiss or hum to a recording.

to get good recordings you need:

1) a decent singer or an instrumentalist who can play
2) a "good enough" microphone. For many the Gauge ECM-87 is a good buy at $150 (and less if you buy from them at the Rally). There are many others and sure if you blow big $$$ on a mic it may have certain characteristics that are very desirable, but often you need good listening skills and know what to listen for. For a lot of sources like an electric guitar amp or a snare drum, the Shure SM-57 at +/- $100 is used in just about every studio out there. The Audio Technica stuff is well regarded in general although whether the 2020 is better than the ECM-87 its hard to say (or vice versa).
3) a good enough preamp / Audio digital convertor / computer interface - this is usually (for low end $$$) all incorporated into one - and while again spending more cash might bring desirable characteristics (more hi conversion, preamps with "character", other bells and whistles like running fancy plugins like the UAD stuff, extra headphone outputs etc) its again a question of "can you actually hear the difference" and does it warrant the extra $$$. The Focusrite Scarlett series seem to work pretty well for a lot of people for not much $$$ and its cross platform (PC / Mac).
4) a computer with a DAW - and really PC's and Macs both work great, and the DAW software really doesn't matter at all to the quality of the recordings - but you may prefer certain things about the way one works over another. Some DAW's only work on Mac like Logic.

Now - there are a couple of considerations to get low noise and good fidelity:

Recording right beside your computer when the fan is blowing and kicking up a lot of noise (or your refrigerator for that matter) would be a bad idea if you want to get low noise.

To get away from the noise:

1) move the mic physically away from the noise source
2) change the direction of the mic compared to the noise (most mics have at least 1 directional pickup pattern like cardioid, and changing the angle of the mic can put that noise in the "null" area which doesn't pickup much sound.
3) if its AC or other mechanical noise - turn it off while you do the take
4) balance distance from the mic with desired sound. Putting your voice or guitar right in front of the mic will lend a very close sound, and reject room and ambient noise. Putting the mic 3 feet away from a softly picked acoustic guitar might give a nice vibe for the style of song you are working on, but to get a decent sound level, you might have to crank the gain on the preamp in your interface and cheap interfaces often have noisy preamps when you crank the gain to 75% or greater. You will also be putting out less volume on the guitar compared to the ambient / room noise, so depending on how much noise there is, you may or may not be happy with the recording.
5) use some kind of acoustic treatment or barrier - for some building a "hut" out of duvets or blankets around the mic can help. Or make, buy, borrow ready made acoustic panels (like ones made from OC 703 insulation of 2" or greater thickness) and make a little "booth" or buy a ready made unit like the SE REflexion filter which will put a barrier between the mic and the noise source. Carpets on the floor of really reflective rooms can help cut down on bounce into the mic, as will recording in rooms with high ceilings.

anyways, some thoughts - hope it helps.

[songmaster]

Hey Andy

Thank you for the advice. I will look into the ECM-87 mic. I am pretty new at this stuff and a lot of your suggestions sound spot on. I have a Audiobox USB interface and I do notice that when I crank it up, I do get quite a hiss. Like you said, if I keep it below 75% it is pretty quiet,( considering, I am probably too close to my computer ). I will look into sound proofing the area around the mic. and see how that turns out.

At least now I know that my DAW is not the problem. I actually enjoy using the studio one and find it quite easy to handle. I can see now that it will take me a lot more experimenting to get the sound I want.

Thanks again Andy, you have given me a lot to think about and look into.

Tom

[rksinger]

I completely agree with Andy. I have used the same mic as he suggests for three years on practically everything and it sounds GREAT. I sometimes have to do a bit of a high roll off because it has a bit of a bump up there, but most of the time that extra air comes in handy.

I won a nice Shure large diaphragm mic in a songwriting contest and it doesn't hold a candle to this mic. If I recorded something on both mics, everyone would pick the Gauge.

I originally used it on a counter tenor opera singer and then I did some songs with my voice in a Johnny Cash range, then some screeching Mic Jagger stuff, and lately some singer songwriter, soft sensitive vx.

I also use it for acoustic guitar, accordian, mandolin, banjo, ukelele, tambourine you get the idea - it just sounds great.

I had someone I was producing come by and "borrow it" without knowing what they were doing (and without asking me) and they brought it back and said, "it sounds terrible." They didn't know it needed phantom power.

Most boards and audio interfaces have phantom power so you are probably good there.

I also have their big tube mic ECM 47 Tube Mic, which I like a lot. Before I got sandbags on my mic stands someone knocked it over and it got dented severely. I contacted Gauge and they fixed it as good as new.

Just a couple days ago I recommended this same mic on an audio engineering group on Facebook and had several other engineers agree with me.

[rksinger]

Oh, BTW I just happen to use Studio One 2 also. Which is amazing. I used pro tools, Sonar, and Acid Pro previously and they can't compare.

With the money you save on the mic, you want to try to get the best preamp you can (look for used ones, you might find a deal!).

[songmaster]

Hey Frank

Thanks for the advice. The ECM-87 is looking better and better. I,m glad to hear that you use it with your Studio One 2. I am excited to give it a try. And now I am going to sound really stupid. Is not the audio interface the same as a " preamp ". Or is that simply a convertor for digital sound? And, if I need a preamp, exactly what does it do ? ( I'm guessing it boosts the volume ). Did I mention that I am new at this ?

Also, what is a good price for a preamp, just curious ?

Tom

[andygabrys]

Is not the audio interface the same as a " preamp ". Or is that simply a convertor for digital sound? And, if I need a preamp, exactly what does it do ? ( I'm guessing it boosts the volume ). Did I mention that I am new at this ?

Also, what is a good price for a preamp, just curious ?

Tom

this picture might help Tom:

http://www.wrestlegrizzlies.com/wp-cont ... iagram.jpg

as it written above - the "interface" in mosts peoples setups has a "preamp", an "audio digital convertor" and a computer connection like USB.

Just about every interface out there also allows you to plug in a DI from a guitar or bass as well as a "line-level" input from an external preamp. So if you use an external preamp, you bypass the mic preamp in your interface. But the interface will still perform the "audio digital conversion" and the computer connection.

external mic preamps run anywhere from $100 to several thousands depending on features with many common units falling in the $500-$1200 range. You may or may not hear a difference at the very low end price point compared to just using the internal preamp in the "interface". As you get higher end, you should expect lower noise at higher gain settings, and more "character".

What is "character"? Hmmmmm.......good question. I have a UA 610 solo tube preamp and it tends to soften the transient attacks of things that I run through it - so it tends to make things sound a little warm and gooey. Its great for bass, really flattering on percussion like tambourines and stuff where you might want a fatter sound. So that is some of the character that I hear.

Some people buy preamps that are inspired by the Neve preamps like the 1073 or 1084, and the neves typically had a generous low end so it makes things like vocals sound a little larger than life.

There are many different options in preamps. Tube or solid state, with slightly different features, and as you spend more money, other things like compressors and eq's added to the basic mic preamp. Here is a selection from Sweetwater.com

http://www.sweetwater.com/c662--Single_ ... MDAwIn19fQ

Note that I didn't show all the less expensive models, but some of them are likely great as well. This album https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/off-t ... d269507308 was recorded primarily using this http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TPSII and it sounds pretty good to me (and to be transparent, the artist / producer is a friend of mine). Although most of it was also recorded through a U87 microphone ($3k at the time) so its hard to say if it sounds that good because of the relatively inexpensive preamp, or because of the mic.

Hope that ramble helps.

[Jack]

Just want to mention that I use an AKG Perception 420 (usually goes for around $200) and I really like it. I use it for vocals as well as to mic my acoustic guitar.

It also helps if you have good plugins!

[rksinger]

Don't scrimp on your preamp too much if you don't have to.

That said, I have done songs released on major labels with nothing but the preamp in a Mackie board. Not recommended.

Any of those preamps Andy linked to on that Sweetwater above would probably be great. You will notice, none of them are cheap.

Keep an eye open for used stuff, and look up reviews on the equipment you find. You can get good deals, though I try to only buy used stuff unless I either know someone can help me with if there is a problems, or if the company still supports the hardware with repairs.

A friend with me at TAXI Road Rally last year looked at the electronics in the new preamp (MP 1073) that Gauge has (it was on display), I forget the particulars but from what he saw (it wasn't set up to hear it), he said it was built amazing. He said they used BIG old skool electronics like in the classic analog boards. It got some preliminary interested discussion on Gearslutz. Its just shy of $600, which if my friend is right, is quite a deal.

[songmaster]

Thank you Andy, Jack and Frank

My head is spinning. Thank you for all the info. Andy, I listened to your friends CD in itunes. He has a great clean sound for that ( indie Rock ) material. I looked at some of the preamps in Sweetwater and the Golden Age Pre73 MK2 looks promising, especially because as you mentioned, it has a " generous " low end sound for larger vocals. Also the Atr tpsII 2- channel preamp seems like a good deal. I feel like I might be smart to spend the extra money and avoid that buyers remorse thing. I still haven't bought the mic yet, so I might be getting ahead of myself.

Jack, I will also look into the AKG Perception 420. As you say that you use if for your acoustic and vocals, it might be just what I need. Without being able to try these units out, I can only rely on what you guys deem the best. So it is a big help.

Yes Frank, I think you are right about not spending too little on something that is this important to the overall sound. I think I will start saving up for this and get the best deal I can on a new preamp. I am not knowlegeable enough to buy a used one at this time, but I sure have enough to work with, with what all you folks have suggested.

Thanks everyone for your imput. i will look into everything you,ve suggested and go from there. Thank God for Youtube.

Tom