Using separate outs on drum programs

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elser
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Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by elser » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:07 am

I'm wondering if anyone is using separate outputs with their drum programs, AD, EZ, BFD etc… and what the advantage is. I use primarily AD and RMX (the separate outs on RMX are pretty useless) but to me there is so much tweak ability within the programs that I don't see the advantage of separate outs unless there's some really special plugin that's going to make your snare or kick that much better and is worth the extra effort and processing power.. I'm guessing most people agree with me, but maybe not?

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by Len911 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:23 am

Well I don't, but the main reason is flexibility, and for those with processing power to spare, why not? It basically allows you to process the audio separately, for example an outboard reverb, transient designer... in real time at the same time, and the ability to hear it all in context and tweak before rendering.
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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by elser » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:10 am

Well, yea you answered the why not, which is; is it worth the extra processing power and additional attention to detail? For instance checking a compressor that maybe already in a program preset and one that you add in the output section. Again, is it worth it?

Actually now that I think about it a transient designer would be a good reason for it.

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by andygabrys » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:24 pm

keep in mind just an opinion here........

I started off using BFD2 a lot with the multi-ouputs. it resulted 80% of the time in overcooked mixes where I put stuff on and wrecked it. taking a perfectly decent acoustic drum kit and making it sound horrible.

sure you can use your SPL transient designer on a snare track. the UAD 1176 or a hardware 1176 on the snare. Most of the time it turned into an overwrought exercise in complexity.

But BFD has transient designers. As does the NI Studio Drummer series. As do many others I am sure. Don't think AD V1 has it, but maybe AD v2.

I found over time that all the built in FX in BFD, Studio Drummer, AD, EZdrummer etc. could do just about as much as I wanted and they sounded great. And much more, that the mix presets in many drum VI's were great. Almost just call up the preset and be done.

so I changed the way I do it. I think 90% of the art is just finding a good kit and mix preset. Less about cooking the drums. And I learned to get over the fact that I didn't have 12 different tracks each with a specific drum mic on it.

just writing for laughs.

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by andygabrys » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:26 pm

Len911 wrote:Well I don't, but the main reason is flexibility, and for those with processing power to spare, why not? It basically allows you to process the audio separately, for example an outboard reverb, transient designer... in real time at the same time, and the ability to hear it all in context and tweak before rendering.
again just an opinion - but what are the chances of you having an outboard reverb that is good enough to bother with using in your mix but you are using canned drums? :)

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by Len911 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:07 pm

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=so ... ms&tbm=vid

I would just like to reiterate flexibility, or options and add even convenience. My guess is that most people will see a product video, and maybe see something that a product does in a manner that makes sense to them, not necessarily because it does anything different. Realistically, though in no way practical,lol, anything can be done with an additive synthesizer! :o Sine waves and their amplitude, frequency and phase all in a timeline. So for reverb, you would need to add the sines with a delay, and a lower amplitude than the original with high frequencies decaying in amplitude quicker than the lower ones, phase cancellation when the original sine(actually it wouldn't necessarily meet up or in whole because time would have passed) meets the returning sine etc., a lot of calculations for sure, with so many variables to compute, for example, the affect of various materials a sine reflects or amount of absorbption.

So, you'll really never know the possibilities, er, never use many of the features, until one day you see some effect that needs all of the separate outputs, and be glad it's possible or wish they did have them if they didn't,lol!

Ocean Way drums wouldn't necessarily need a reverb per se, as they have a P1-P6 premix setting, dry-ambient, but for creativity? No rules. If you use the same instruments in a preset, that is, because they were recorded in the same room and positioned as a kit, and have the same mics and same position for the room mics.

What's wrong with canned drums?? :lol: :P
I don't reckon they would be as static as a flute or violin sample, well I mean a drum is generally a hit and transient and would naturally be more static than a less static note with air, a bow, or reed which would be in constant flux and energy.
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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by Len911 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:32 pm

I both agree and disagree with both of you!lol!

And I probably shouldn't admit that I have the Sonnox plugins but have never used them in that way because I am lazy,lol, or at least that I have so many things going on, that I just can't think of everything at once!! :lol:

I don't know if it's just curiosity or what, but I have this tendency to want to understand the inner workings, and probably what I need is one of those "easy buttons",lol! But then I'd wonder exactly what it was that the easy button was actually doing, and if I could do better using a different method. :? But it's been both fun and frustrating,lol!

Oh, and don't watch any of those Sonnox tips and tutorial videos on mixing drums, because you might like what you see and incur another expense! Just stick with the basic, "Amish Guide to Mixing", surely there is such a book, and you'll be far richer!
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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by andygabrys » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:40 pm

no argument with Rich Tozzoli - I have watched a bunch of his videos.

but hey man - these are live drums. Where you would need to add comp eq and so on.

different from samples.

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by elser » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:07 pm

I think we're all in agreement here. Of course you get more options with separate outs, but also the possibility for getting yourself in trouble like Andy said. I went through that same thing with BFD, those basic samples are just killer, but they kinda do need a little more massaging whereas for me, there are many of the AD presets that need very little massaging at all. And I get that thing like Len said, the tendency to want to understand the inner workings, but I think for the most part I do already. It kind of comes back to the "if it works don't fix it" thing. I have spent hours tweaking individual parts only to wake up in the morning with fresh ears and go, "Oh my god what have I done?".

I was kind of expecting someone to chime in say "dude you're not using separate outs, your mixes must suck". But hearing back from both of you, my suspicions are confirmed; it's not worth going there. Now I can spend all my time moving the mics around on the guitar cab in my bathroom trying to get the perfect reverb. :lol: Not!

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Re: Using separate outs on drum programs

Post by Len911 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:11 pm

andygabrys wrote:no argument with Rich Tozzoli - I have watched a bunch of his videos.

but hey man - these are live drums. Where you would need to add comp eq and so on.

different from samples.

"...I found over time that all the built in FX in BFD, Studio Drummer, AD, EZdrummer etc. could do just about as much as I wanted and they sounded great. And much more, that the mix presets in many drum VI's were great. Almost just call up the preset and be done. "

Built in fx on canned drums?? :P :lol: :lol:

Again, I both agree and disagree, :lol: though maybe not consistantly
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