Too MIDI?

[tralfamadore]

Okay, I have certainly received feedback that I agree or disagree with to varying degrees. And I try to keep an open mind even with the screener opinions that I disagree with, chalking it up to a teachable moment for me to understand what others hear in my work. However, I just had two string quartets returned for sounding "too midi and synthetic". Both pieces were recorded with a live string quartet. I have no alternative, in that case, but to question the ears of the screeners and greatly question their authority as a gatekeepers. I don't doubt that any experienced music supervisor would have heard the same pieces and recognized real strings from their synthetic counterparts. But if Taxi is going to employ people who can't tell the difference, it tarnishes their own reputation and makes me question why I'm spending my money here.

In all fairness, I am not talking about all screeners. Some are great. I've received some very thoughtful rejections that I've learned a lot from and that have tempered my own over exuberance for what I submit to. Those people are quite valuable. But I do wonder how Taxi keeps tabs on the listening skills of their people.

[AndyAtTaxi]

Thanks for the post, tralfamadore, this has the potential of being a really interesting conversation about what is and isn't programmed, and whether we can tell if it is or not. So I invite responses from all.

First off though, I'd like to address your main point - what kind of people do TAXI employ that can't tell the difference between real and programmed strings?

This listing was actually screened by the Music Coordinator for the TV show, as disclosed in the listing, and they present the music directly to the Music Supervisor. They have worked on many top profile TV shows, and whether they can identify MIDI or real or not (which is a discussion for later on in this thread) we can be sure that they know what music will be an exact fit for the scenes in their show, and be able to give a fairly good reason why.

Even so, we take these things seriously at Taxi, and it went all the way to Michael (the CEO here), who took a listen to these tracks and some of the forwards and it was clear that the forwards had life and sparkle, while the returned tracks did not sound quite as "human" as the forwards. Which leads to the question - were the forwards live players or samples? Can we definitively tell, and does it matter? Already one member has posted their forward in the "Forwards" forum, so check it out and see what you think. http://forums.taxi.com/topic130111.html

Michael would normally have responded to this himself, but I have particular experience in this area, having been involved in music and sound for film & TV for longer than I'd like to say (and in MIDI programming for even longer!). I'm also an experienced orchestral string player so I have some direct background there too.

I'll be happy chime in with my thoughts on the difference between real and MIDI, whether we can really tell the difference, and whether (or when) it matters, but I'll leave it for when/if the conversation gets established.

Andy

[funsongs]

From the peanut gallery: interesting topic.
Awesome track that got forwarded; not surprising. Congrats to Cade Roberts.
fwiw:
Peter R.

[PeterD]

tralfamadore,

I feel your frustration and disappointment ... I REALLY do!!!

Before anyone reading your post can give their opinion (not that it matters now, since the listing has expired), we should be given a chance to listen to your submission. Can you share with us a link? I, for one, am VERY curious to hear it.

I sent one in for this listing too. When the forwards came out earlier and I realized I didn't get one, I figured, "oh well ..." There were a few things about mine that were brought to my attention during the "final check" phase, but I decided to roll the dice anyway. I'm not terribly crushed but now I know how high the bar was set for this listing.

Chin up!!

[Russell Landwehr]

Before anyone reading your post can give their opinion, we should be given a chance to listen to your submission. Can you share with us a link?

+1
A complaint post without the returned music for us to hear really doesn't do any good... and leads to no discussion when there is no reference point.

Regards
Russell

Edit: Hi "AndyAtTaxi" welcome to the forums

[AndyAtTaxi]

Hi Russell.

I'm not much for forums (as you can tell - after all this time that was my first post).

I have the tendency to write way too much, way too slowly; I'm afraid that if I got involved here I'd fall in and never get out.

Now I'm registered though I'm happy to help with anything that I have any expertise with, which as I said above is pretty much Film/TV instrumental music & production; including MIDI/electronic music and real/programmed orchestral music.

Andy

[PeterD]

Howdy Andy!

Now we're gonna bug youuuuuu ....

Kidding, of course.

[PeterD]

FWIW ... Here's the piece I submitted and the screener notes:
https://soundcloud.com/moanakeiki/postn ... ities-2015

#381 said: It's a lovely piece of music, Peter, but the director would have to be 100% convinced that it was produced with only live strings and that's just not the case here, I'm afraid. were that the case, it would be forwarded on for further review.


I'll take it!

[tralfamadore]

Hi, all. First time posting, as well. And as happy as I am that it's starting a discussion, I'm unable to keep pace with y'all. Sorry for the delay.

First off, as requested, my submission. I submitted two pieces, but here's the one I thought was most appropriate. https://soundcloud.com/rythojo/the-queens-study

I generally feel no need to complain. However, I'm in constant pursuit of improving my skills, as I'm sure we all are. And like others, I welcome criticism from the returns to mine ideas of how I can improve. But this was a particular scenario when the core criticism wasn't something that could be subjectively argued. It was objectively incorrect because there were objectively real people sitting in my studio playing violins. So how does one improve?

The forwarded example that Andy linked above is a great piece of music and reflects an expert manipulation of samples. But I can still tell that they're samples. Certainly not in any egregious way, and I'm sure that in the midst of a restaurant scene, nobody in the TV viewing audience would be the wiser. But there is a bit of "too perfect" that will pop out to the ear from time to time. On a side note, he's pretty wise to keep the piece largely staccato. They always sound better and, if you ask me, synths always reveal themselves when moving between staccato, legato, and trills. I would have forwarded it, too.

Now, stylistically - His music is far sprightlier than mine. If this music coordinator had said, "I'm looking for something jauntier," I would have had no confusion nor frustration. In fact, if the guy/gal said, "This just isn't right for the scene," or even "I don't like this," that would have been fine. I would know exactly where we all stand. The concern, and perhaps this is a broader problem in the world of music supervision, is that someone tasked specifically with finding human-sounding music may not be entirely familiar with what to listen for. Again, that leaves the rest of us asking how we can possibly improve and why we're expending the time and money.

[Cruciform]

Hi tralf, can I call you tralf?

I don't know the listing, don't know what they were looking for and this is just my shoot-and-run comments.

Your piece is so obviously live it's thoroughly baffling that anyone with a shred of experience in the industry could suggest it was too midi and synthetic.

Having said that, the cue lacks 'life' and IMO it's partially due to the way it's been mixed (or perhaps recorded). Everything is right there in the centre. There's no sense of 'space' between the players. If they were all recorded together at one time in a small area, I can understand that arranging a spatial seating environment would be challenging. Some judicious reverb and stereo widening or M/S processing could help. If they were overdubbed, there should be no problem moving them in the mix.

This might be perfectly acceptable as a recording of a chamber group for some purposes (such as releasing a CD, I don't know). But for film/tv 'sounding synthy' may be their way of saying it doesn't have width and life, that it lacks a contemporary screen aesthetic.

Secondly, and this is purely my reaction from listening - the players sound bored, like they're just going through the motions. Without being lively, I think they could have added a lot more emotion and expressiveness into the performances. (Please don't hit me if you're one of them!)

Music supes generally aren't paid for the theoretical or practical knowledge. They're paid for their talent and ability to match music to picture. Hence, if that comment came direct from the supe it may simply be that they felt something was 'lifeless' about the performance, didn't have the ability to describe and therefore used catch-all phrases to describe their reaction.

All put together, it isn't so baffling after all even though they were technically incorrect.

I'm just guessing obviously, but that's my 2c.