About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

A creative space for business discussions.

Moderators: admin, mdc, TAXIstaff

arska
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:49 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by arska » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:50 am

Hi!

After joining to Taxi on January and since I've started to have forwards I'm thinking should I join already ASCAP / BMI even I haven't received contacts from libraries/supervisors... my current feeling is that probably it would be a good idea. And then the more tricky part: Since I'm from Finland I have to fill IRS forms like W-7 for getting ITIN number etc.. this all will take a lot time I think.

And I'd like to ask comments from any non-U.S member how has this been worked out for you: Have you joined to ASCAP/BMI etc first and then after membership to ASCAP/BMI, they will send royalties to your local country performance rights organization who will finally pay to you? Any experiences on how this thing work?

I'm aware that mostly members in Taxi are from U.S but at least based on testimonials on Taxi site there are also non-U.S members having succeeded in this already..

SongCatMusic
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:39 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Dun Laoghaire/Las Palmas/Clearwater, FL
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by SongCatMusic » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Hi Arska, Why do you want to join ASCAP or BMI? If you're based in Finland wouldn't it make more sense to join http://www.teosto.fi/ ?
If your music gets placed in the US, ASCAP or BMI (whoever TEOSTO deals with, or they'll let you choose) will collect the royalties in the US, forward them to TEOSTO and pay you out. I'm a member of IMRO (the Irish PRO) and have music placed in Ireland, the rest of Europe and the US. When I register a song with the IMRO, they let me choose if I want to use ASCAP or BMI for US performances, but the check comes from the IMRO only.

This is what Jeffrey & Todd Brabec wrote on a Taxi article:

"Foreign Country Performances

The PROs in the U.S. have reciprocal agreements with the PROs in each country of the world whereby the foreign country society licenses the performances of U.S. writers works in their own country and forwards the money to the U.S. writer's PRO. Under the same agreement, the U.S. PROs license the performances of the works of foreign writers in the U.S. and forward that money to the foreign writer's home country PRO. "

(Source: http://www.taxi.com/music-business-faq/ ... ces-2.html)

User avatar
Russell Landwehr
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:59 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Midwestern Ohio
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by Russell Landwehr » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:55 pm

It is best to be affiliated with a PRO before you get signed. Things run a lot smoother that way.

From ASCAP's site:
I do not have a valid US Social Security Number or I am a not a US citizen. Can I still join ASCAP?
You may join ASCAP if you do not have a valid US Social Security Number or are not a US citizen; however, additional income reporting documentation must be provided with your application. Please go to the IRS website (irs.gov) to obtain a W8-BEN form. When you have completed the application please mail the original completed W8-BEN with your application number written on the top to:

ASCAP
Attn: Applications
7920 West Sunset Blvd.
Third Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90046


From BMI's site:
I live in a foreign country. Can I affiliate with BMI?

As long as you are not a member of any other performing rights organization in the world, you are free to affiliate with BMI if you believe you will be earning performance royalties.


However, it seems to me that affiliating with your country's PRO could be a smoother way to go. Although, it would increase the time it takes for Royalties to get to you through the system.

Regards,
Russell Landwehr
Multi-Genre Composer and Producer of TV and Film music Providing Easy to Use Cues for Every Scene

http://www.sensawehr.com
https://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home. ... l_Landwehr
http://soundcloud.com/russell-landwehr

arska
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:49 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by arska » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:31 pm

SongCatMusic wrote: "Foreign Country Performances

The PROs in the U.S. have reciprocal agreements with the PROs in each country of the world whereby the foreign country society licenses the performances of U.S. writers works in their own country and forwards the money to the U.S. writer's PRO. Under the same agreement, the U.S. PROs license the performances of the works of foreign writers in the U.S. and forward that money to the foreign writer's home country PRO. "

(Source: http://www.taxi.com/music-business-faq/ ... ces-2.html)
Thanks for that piece of information, Finnish PRO (TEOSTO) did shortly already comment that through TEOSTO they indeed can forward royalties originating from ASCAP and BMI. But... even I am member of Finnish PRO TEOSTO, if I'm not member of ASCAP/BMI then how they would recognize that it's my track to which they need to send royalties to Finnish PRO.... ? Well, I try reach TEOSTO again, so far it has been hard to reach them to get decent answers.
Last edited by arska on Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

arska
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:49 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by arska » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:36 pm

Russell Landwehr wrote:It is best to be affiliated with a PRO before you get signed. Things run a lot smoother that way.

From ASCAP's site:
I do not have a valid US Social Security Number or I am a not a US citizen. Can I still join ASCAP?
You may join ASCAP if you do not have a valid US Social Security Number or are not a US citizen; however, additional income reporting documentation must be provided with your application. Please go to the IRS website (irs.gov) to obtain a W8-BEN form. When you have completed the application please mail the original completed W8-BEN with your application number written on the top to:

ASCAP
Attn: Applications
7920 West Sunset Blvd.
Third Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90046


From BMI's site:
I live in a foreign country. Can I affiliate with BMI?

As long as you are not a member of any other performing rights organization in the world, you are free to affiliate with BMI if you believe you will be earning performance royalties.


However, it seems to me that affiliating with your country's PRO could be a smoother way to go. Although, it would increase the time it takes for Royalties to get to you through the system.
Yes I did read that ASCAP note but not that BMI one, so thanks for that Russel! And from that ASCAP text I got impression that I would probably need to join ASCAP as well in order to get any royalty payments and like I mentioned in my other reply above, wondering how ASCAP/BMI would recognize me for paying royalties either directly or via Finnish PRO (TEOSTO) if I'm not a member of ASCAP / BMI... Well, probably TEOSTO is sending their member info to ASCAP / BMI (answering myself :)

And yes, at least TEOSTO is paying every half year (December and June) but don't know though how often ASCAP / BMI are paying...

Russel, again thank you, it was delightful to realize you did actually pick those info for me! I try to collaborate myself as well in this forum...

SongCatMusic
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:39 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Dun Laoghaire/Las Palmas/Clearwater, FL
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by SongCatMusic » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:11 pm

arska wrote:
SongCatMusic wrote: "Foreign Country Performances

The PROs in the U.S. have reciprocal agreements with the PROs in each country of the world whereby the foreign country society licenses the performances of U.S. writers works in their own country and forwards the money to the U.S. writer's PRO. Under the same agreement, the U.S. PROs license the performances of the works of foreign writers in the U.S. and forward that money to the foreign writer's home country PRO. "

(Source: http://www.taxi.com/music-business-faq/ ... ces-2.html)
Thanks for that piece of information, Finnish PRO (TEOSTO) did shortly already comment that through TEOSTO they indeed can forward royalties originating from ASCAP and BMI. But... even I am member of Finnish PRO TEOSTO, if I'm not member of ASCAP/BMI then how they would recognize that it's my track to which they need to send royalties to Finnish PRO.... ? Well, I try reach TEOSTO again, so far it has been hard to reach them to get decent answers.
You can only join one organization anyways, so if you go for BMI, you won't be able to register with TEOSTO and if you register with TEOSTO, you won't be able to join BMI. Once you register your music with your PRO, it will be in an international database and therefore foreign PROs can distribute the royalties to your home PRO. The FAQs of BMI are very helpful I think. Have a look and see. Maybe it'll answer some of your questions.

http://www.bmi.com/faq/category/international

http://www.bmi.com/international/entry/ ... l_overview

Note that you are free to join any PRO (most PROs accept foreign nationalities so theoretically you can join IMRO, PRS, GEMA, BMI, ASCAP, etc. but do check with each first, some have special requirements for songwriters to join), but only one PRO as a writer. If you don't feel comfortable with your home organization then maybe have a look at others first. Once you start placing music, they are the ones collecting the royalties for you. If you have questions about your statement or suspect some royalties are missing you should be comfortable to call them and most of all reach someone with knowledge.

I hope this helps. If not, you're always welcome to ask more questions!

arska
Getting Busy
Getting Busy
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:49 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by arska » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:47 am

SongCatMusic wrote:
arska wrote:
SongCatMusic wrote: "Foreign Country Performances

The PROs in the U.S. have reciprocal agreements with the PROs in each country of the world whereby the foreign country society licenses the performances of U.S. writers works in their own country and forwards the money to the U.S. writer's PRO. Under the same agreement, the U.S. PROs license the performances of the works of foreign writers in the U.S. and forward that money to the foreign writer's home country PRO. "

(Source: http://www.taxi.com/music-business-faq/ ... ces-2.html)
Thanks for that piece of information, Finnish PRO (TEOSTO) did shortly already comment that through TEOSTO they indeed can forward royalties originating from ASCAP and BMI. But... even I am member of Finnish PRO TEOSTO, if I'm not member of ASCAP/BMI then how they would recognize that it's my track to which they need to send royalties to Finnish PRO.... ? Well, I try reach TEOSTO again, so far it has been hard to reach them to get decent answers.
You can only join one organization anyways, so if you go for BMI, you won't be able to register with TEOSTO and if you register with TEOSTO, you won't be able to join BMI. Once you register your music with your PRO, it will be in an international database and therefore foreign PROs can distribute the royalties to your home PRO. The FAQs of BMI are very helpful I think. Have a look and see. Maybe it'll answer some of your questions.

http://www.bmi.com/faq/category/international

http://www.bmi.com/international/entry/ ... l_overview

Note that you are free to join any PRO (most PROs accept foreign nationalities so theoretically you can join IMRO, PRS, GEMA, BMI, ASCAP, etc. but do check with each first, some have special requirements for songwriters to join), but only one PRO as a writer. If you don't feel comfortable with your home organization then maybe have a look at others first. Once you start placing music, they are the ones collecting the royalties for you. If you have questions about your statement or suspect some royalties are missing you should be comfortable to call them and most of all reach someone with knowledge.

I hope this helps. If not, you're always welcome to ask more questions!
Thanks a lot for this! Meanwhile I've contacted my local PRO TEOSTO and basically they confirmed that since I'm member of TEOSTO I don't need to join to BMI/ASCAP in order to
receive royalties. Though still to me it is unclear on what is the exact piece of information in cue sheets from american TV-companies etc sent to ASCAP/BMI that matches my TEOSTO information to make this work. Well, maybe I think too far anyway..

User avatar
andygabrys
Total Pro
Total Pro
Posts: 5567
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:09 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Summerland, BC by way of Santa Fe, Chilliwack, Boston, NYC
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by andygabrys » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:52 am

arska wrote:Though still to me it is unclear on what is the exact piece of information in cue sheets from american TV-companies etc sent to ASCAP/BMI that matches my TEOSTO information to make this work. Well, maybe I think too far anyway..
When you submit directly to a TV music supervisor or to an ad agency music supervisor - they will note the name of the composition and your applicable PRO info. For these situations you often will retain the writers and publishers info - Which might be Your_name (BMI) and Your_publisher (BMI) - this is often noted in the contract, or at least has been in my case.

When your music is presented by a publisher / library, as they earn the publishers share of royalties and in most cases 1/2 of upfront payments, they will have on record the IPI # corresponding to your PRO registration, and as every piece that they represent is registered with their PRO (say its an American publisher and they register under BMI) then there will also be a registration filed under your PRO.

for example:

Your_song - writer: Arska (TEOSTO) 100%, Publisher: AMERICAN PUBLISHING (BMI) 100%

So when AMERICAN PUBLISHING registers this song with BMI a record is sent to TEOSTO that shows the same info.

Then if the song is used on a TV program, a cue sheet is filed which shows:

Your_song - use duration 0:23 - use: BI (background instrumental) - writer: Arska (TEOSTO) 100%, Publisher: AMERICAN PUBLISHING (BMI) 100%

If there is a sync / master use license fee, AMERICAN PUBLISHING will collect that directly and then send you a cheque for 50% minus expenses (or it might be a different % depending on your contract with AMERICAN PUBLISHING). This might take a number of months for you to receive as most publishers pay out semi-annually.

and in a mere 9 months (domestically) or 12 months + (internationally) you will get your royalties directly from TEOSTO

This might be detailed in one of the links above.

and its shown in brief here:

http://www.bmi.com/creators/detail/what_is_a_cue_sheet

Kolstad
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 4620
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:19 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by Kolstad » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:04 am

I'm in Denmark, and consider joining ASCAP allthough I'm a KODA member.

It is true that you don't need to join in order to recieve royalties, but it might make it easier for your US publishers to register the works with ASCAP there, and in the members area you will be able to review cue sheets as well.

See http://www.ascap.com/music-career/artic ... heets.aspx

I haven't yet, though, so no direct experience so far.
Ceo of my own life

User avatar
andygabrys
Total Pro
Total Pro
Posts: 5567
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:09 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Summerland, BC by way of Santa Fe, Chilliwack, Boston, NYC
Contact:

Re: About joining to ASCAP and BMI (non-U.S member)

Post by andygabrys » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:07 am

Kolstad wrote:I'm in Denmark, and consider joining ASCAP allthough I'm a KODA member.

It is true that you don't need to join in order to recieve royalties, but it might make it easier for your US publishers to register the works with ASCAP there, and in the members area you will be able to review cue sheets as well.

See http://www.ascap.com/music-career/artic ... heets.aspx

I haven't yet, though, so no direct experience so far.
that might be an advantage, but also be aware that for certain kinds of performances, i.e. Background vocal - that BMI pays more than ASCAP since ASCAP slashed the rate several years back (2012 I believe).

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests