Could use some assistance with a review.

[BenjaminDerclaye]

Hi, I highly value all feedbaqck I get, from people on the forum here andf from screeners on the hosting page. However, this would be the first time where I can't figure out how to take the best out of the critique and learn something out of it.

I got a song returned with following critique:
Style not on target for electronic dance. Lacking contemporary sound selections. Need more contemporary approaches to instrumentation.

The tricky bit is that I did some good research and eventually ended up using the same instruments, sounds, and structure of the reference tracks. But all chords, melody, progressions are all original. So what does this critique means? They want something more contemporary than contemporary? Does that mean that the examples they gave are already dated to their ears?


I really don't mind getting songs returned, but I do want to learn something out of it at the very least.

Anyone had a similar problem?
All feedback highly appreciated.
Cheers

[andygabrys]

Benjamin - post the listing and your tune. Then maybe the opinions could mean more.

At one point I got a couple returns that had somewhat cryptical comments, and I scratched my head for a while and moved on. Sad to say maybe, but experience is as good or better a teacher as trying to figure out what the one liner is about.

[Russell Landwehr]

yes, Benjamin, like Andy says...

These things are all about context. I (as well as my EDM peers I'm sure) would love to help you understand ... or agree that you got shafted (maybe)... but it can't be done unless we know the listing details and can hear your song.

Regards
Russell Landwehr

[BenjaminDerclaye]

Hi Andy,

Here it is:

LISTING:
ELECTRONIC DANCE (EDM) INSTRUMENTALS They’re searching for Mid-to-Up-Tempo Instrumentals that could be heard at huge festivals alongside great artists like Tiesto, Armin van Buuren, Dash Berlin, etc., etc., etc. Please listen to the following references to get an idea of the general vibe and style they need: “Let’s Go” by Tiesto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQf2wX-ltXg “Alone” by Armin van Buuren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVBzBST18yw “Waiting” by Dash Berlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSgnf-tBN9s Give them fun, energetic Tracks that would appeal to the hardcore EDM crowd, but also be Pop-friendly enough for the mainstream markets. This company does really well with their compilations, and they’ve developed a large following for their releases. Please submit full-length Instrumentals (at least two minutes long) with pulsing four-on-the-floor beats, super catchy melodic motifs, awesome builds, and exploding chorus sections that will make listeners jump up and dance till they pass out.

SUBMITTED TRACK:
https://soundcloud.com/derclaye/jump-on

Thanks for the help guys.

[Russell Landwehr]

Ah there we go then....

I'm really gonna beat you up on the EDM subject here (apologies in advance)....

but... first.
This is a TOTALLY excellent track. VERY well produced... it's just that it is NOT EDM,

To my ears the "style" of this is... "Action Cue with EDM Elements."

I'm VERY familiar with the referenced artists. So here is the point where I beat you up AND pat you on the back:

The first thing that jumps out at me is the chord progression: it is very not EDM. This progression is a "down" progression where EDM is all about "UP" and usually involves more than three chords (except in the "drop" where it is only once chord for a very long and satisfying time.)

Your mix is very good, you've brought that "four on the floor" kick where it needs to be and it thumps (and cuts) nicely. Your "edit points" are properly built with a good slam on the downbeat of the next section. However, I've got to agree that your instrument choice for the artists referenced is out of the "hands-in-the-air" realm of festival EDM. If you listen to the instruments used in that kind of music, you will find that "less is more" and EVERY instrument is "over the top". This means finding the synth sounds that have the greatest impact and using less of them in the mix and pumping them to their max value. (this includes "acoustic" piano, BTW) The instruments they use can solo fantastically and get the blood moving. They spray the sonic spectrum, and the attacks are percussive and very "in your face."
Additionally, the proper Festival EDM is very poly-rhythmic. And I would describe it as "collective galloping". The genre of EDM leans very heavily on synth elements that act as rhythmic parts.

One thing that REALLY jumps out at me as a BIG no-no on this track is that you've got a "disco" guitar in there... ooops!

Another thing about this is that EDM very seldom has the main instruments (and specially the "bass") on the 1st beat of the 4-measure or 8-measure motif. The downbeat of EDM is reserved (mostly) for the kick, and everything stays out of its way and makes all that space between the downbeats interesting with all those cool poly-rhythms.

So anyway... hope I didn't bruise you too much. Please let me say again, this is an EXCELLENTLY PRODUCED PIECE ... just not EDM. VERY good work here... just off target. If you want to place this kind of thing, keep plugging away and find an "Action" slot for it.

Regards
Russell Landwehr

EDIT: I typed all of the above without listening to the references... The Tiesto track stands out with the "down" progression... VERY unlike most EDM... you will find that in these TAXI listings... that there is an outlier.
But if you listen to the instruments in these examples and specially in light of my comments on the poly-rhythms and the "kick owns the downbeat" you will see what I mean.

[BenjaminDerclaye]

Hey Russell,

First of all thanks for your feedback. I really do appreciate you taking your time for this.
Secondly, I can handle some bruises and I'm very thick-skinned when it concerns productive feedback.

Some additional points regarding your feedback. Just making sure I understand everything correctly.

Ah there we go then....
The first thing that jumps out at me is the chord progression: it is very not EDM. This progression is a "down" progression where EDM is all about "UP" and usually involves more than three chords (except in the "drop" where it is only once chord for a very long and satisfying time.)

Ok fair enough and I'll take your word on it. However, when listening to the very first reference (Tiesto), and I'm sure there's heaps more examples, you hear a three chord downwards progression. EDIT: The second reference is half downwards and if you listen to the progression as a whole, it's downwards as well.

If you listen to the instruments used in that kind of music, you will find that "less is more" and EVERY instrument is "over the top". This means finding the synth sounds that have the greatest impact and using less of them in the mix and pumping them to their max value. (this includes "acoustic" piano, BTW) The instruments they use can solo fantastically and get the blood moving. They spray the sonic spectrum, and the attacks are percussive and very "in your face."
Additionally, the proper Festival EDM is very poly-rhythmic. And I would describe it as "collective galloping". The genre of EDM leans very heavily on synth elements that act as rhythmic parts.

I get what you mean there. I can tell you that all the rhythmic elements, guitars (acoustic and electric), risers and downs and one synth (the more saw-tooth lead one in my piece) is as close as possible to the original first reference. However, I do understand it when you say it should be "less is more".

One thing that REALLY jumps out at me as a BIG no-no on this track is that you've got a "disco" guitar in there... ooops!

Again, first reference they gave in the listing. That's the one I used as a structure and sounds blueprint.
https://youtu.be/IQf2wX-ltXg?t=32s

Another thing about this is that EDM very seldom has the main instruments (and specially the "bass") on the 1st beat of the 4-measure or 8-measure motif. The downbeat of EDM is reserved (mostly) for the kick, and everything stays out of its way and makes all that space between the downbeats interesting with all those cool poly-rhythms.

I'm not sure I understand this. You mean most instruments are not playing on the downbeats to leave space for the kicks? I don't hear that when listening to the references and EDM in general. I did however, in the mix made sure that everything would allow the kick to pierce through.

Thanks again for your time and please don't see my answers as a cheeky attempt to prove me right. I' genuinely giving you those answers so I could make more sense of the listings and your feedback and make sure I'm more on target next time.

Highly appreciated!!!

[andygabrys]

Hi Benjamin,

I have a few thoughts about your track:

Ah there we go then....
The first thing that jumps out at me is the chord progression: it is very not EDM. This progression is a "down" progression where EDM is all about "UP" and usually involves more than three chords (except in the "drop" where it is only once chord for a very long and satisfying time.)

Ok fair enough and I'll take your word on it. However, when listening to the very first reference (Tiesto), and I'm sure there's heaps more examples, you hear a three chord downwards progression. EDIT: The second reference is half downwards and if you listen to the progression as a whole, it's downwards as well.

I think its confusing to think of a chord progression as either "down" or "up". As what seems to be moving down or up is the reverse if you jump octaves in the middle of the line. That might seem confusing as a comment - so......another way to explain it is:

One thing that is common to all the refs (esp Tiesto because its featuring Icona Pop - and if you listen to their other stuff they are unabashedly electro pop) is that the chord progressions follow standard diatonic chord patterns which are at use 95% of the time in pop, a lot of rock, some alt, and def EDM.

tiesto: vi - V - IV - I repeat and repeat
Armin (when the kick drops): vi - IV - I - V repeat and repeat
Dash Berlin: I - V - vi - IV repeat and repeat

if I am talking greek - In the key of C : C = I, F = IV, G = V, Amin = vi

so all three songs are the same chords, just played in different ways. there is a YouTube video of a duo doing like 100 songs in a medley that also use the exact same 4 chords, rearranged, and with different durations. These are all pop songs that you and everybody would know.

Stark contrast to your track which exhibits a "sneaky" minor to major duality and doesn't really follow a set chord progression like the above. Like russell said, I think your track is very filmic, but its for a kind of chase scene, not an EDM instrumental soundalike.

If you listen to the instruments used in that kind of music, you will find that "less is more" and EVERY instrument is "over the top". This means finding the synth sounds that have the greatest impact and using less of them in the mix and pumping them to their max value. (this includes "acoustic" piano, BTW) The instruments they use can solo fantastically and get the blood moving. They spray the sonic spectrum, and the attacks are percussive and very "in your face."
Additionally, the proper Festival EDM is very poly-rhythmic. And I would describe it as "collective galloping". The genre of EDM leans very heavily on synth elements that act as rhythmic parts.

I get what you mean there. I can tell you that all the rhythmic elements, guitars (acoustic and electric), risers and downs and one synth (the more saw-tooth lead one in my piece) is as close as possible to the original first reference. However, I do understand it when you say it should be "less is more".

Poly-rythmic might not be totally accurate here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm but I do get what Russell is saying:

rhythm 1 - Kick on quarter notes
rhythm 2 - main melodic figure / chord figure

that's it basically. When these tunes are really pumping, that is the most you really hear.

the rest (hi hat, snare etc.) are generally just reinforcing the subdivisions of the two primary rhythms above.

One thing that REALLY jumps out at me as a BIG no-no on this track is that you've got a "disco" guitar in there... ooops!

Again, first reference they gave in the listing. That's the one I used as a structure and sounds blueprint.
https://youtu.be/IQf2wX-ltXg?t=32s

this was just unfortunate, as Tiesto not only buried the guitar in the mix but let it just be another layer in the background. He used the acoustic guitars supporting the main chord progression as well, but the rhythm they play is straight 8th notes for the most part, in effect just playing the subdivisions of the main kick rhythm again.

So when you used the guitar pretty naked in the break.....its a different effect. Even though its the same instrument.

Another thing about this is that EDM very seldom has the main instruments (and specially the "bass") on the 1st beat of the 4-measure or 8-measure motif. The downbeat of EDM is reserved (mostly) for the kick, and everything stays out of its way and makes all that space between the downbeats interesting with all those cool poly-rhythms.

I'm not sure I understand this. You mean most instruments are not playing on the downbeats to leave space for the kicks? I don't hear that when listening to the references and EDM in general. I did however, in the mix made sure that everything would allow the kick to pierce through.

IMO what Russell is saying is on the beat - let the kick win. All the time. Put most of the 2nd main rhythm on the off beats. Tiesto at 2:36. Listen to the synth guitar / synth rhythm. A significant part of it is not on the beat.

Armin 3:15 - totally different effect - most of the melodic material is straight 8th notes - so the kick is pretty loud to punch through.

Dash Berlin 1:27 - hear I can hear the bass and especially the synth pads pumping - so that is the way to get the kick to punch through and all the pads and the other stuff fills in the off beats between the kick.

there are lots of ways to get stuff to pump - side chain compression. The waves one knob pumper plugin. An there is another one that David Guetta apparently uses himself http://www.cableguys.de/volume-shaper.html which allows you to reshape the envelope of the pump, which is more difficult with the other methods.

Broadcast quality:

the discussion has been mostly on the elements that make up this piece, and its probable that with the same sounds, and a change of approach in the actual composition it would be fine. Maybe you would have to change a few sounds out as I didn't hear the stereotypical synth sound that so many pieces have. Or maybe just a change in octave would be enough.

but....IMO - for the style of the refs, the mix isn't working. Although its fairly limited (I can see on my meters on the loud parts) it's fairly dark, and sounds "closed" on the top instead of the "open and airy" sound of the refs.


With respect to the screeners comments:

Style not on target for electronic dance. Lacking contemporary sound selections. Need more contemporary approaches to instrumentation.

there is IMO three things in the comment:

Style - could be chord progression, could be the Action cue one chord idea, could be it doesn't sound like a pop song clothed in EDM textures
Contemporary sound selections: Dash Berlin 1:34, Armin 3:18, Tiesto 2:58 - you might have been heading that way but your sounds lack the generous high end and fizz of these square wavy synths.
Contemporary approaches to instrumentation: I read that to mean yes, Tiesto did some cool things with acoustic guitar and the disco guitar (as Avicii did as well with the acoustic) but they also cloaked them in the usual EDM wolfs clothing and didn't expose them too much.

my 2 cents hope it is of help.

[TheElement]

Good advice above. I saw that listing. Did not submit to it. I figured I couldn't nail the reference track style. Was this also an exclusive?

[BenjaminDerclaye]

Hi Andy, Thanks for the very valuable advice. Very helpful.

I wasn't really 100% satisfied with the mix so I totally can relate to that and I'll try to adapt the song according to your and Russels advice.
Surely there will be another similar listing coming up.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Russell Landwehr]

Thanks for clarifying my comments, Andy... I was offline for a bit. You pretty much hit my nail for me.

Right, Andy, yes, I'm mis-speaking "poly-rhythmic". What I'm referring to is the Kick taking all the Downbeat and EVERYTHING else supporting it in an interesting manner by multiple and complementary and repeating syncopations.

As far as "down" and "UP" I'm referring to the FEEL of the progression. Not so much as the actual chords themselves. An EDM chord progression (no matter the actual chords) will have a feel of building excitement. The way the chords are performed in this piece have the feel of a solid aggressive stance... Like a batter digging into the dirt of the batters box. Or a pugilist purposefully eyeing the tiger.
It's kind of like pornography.... you know it when you hear it... but you gotta immerse yourself in it for quite a while to totally get that feel. The best way to do this is to go to your local club and spend a few hours every week in the SERIOUS EDM room getting your chest and ears punished.

About that downbeat. The Kick MUST own it... just like Andy says. If any bass parts are on the downbeat, you hardly ever hear them because they are sidechained to the kick. Hell, often the upper frequency stuff is sidechained also... (as much as I'm not really keen on that pumping bright chord thing)
The kick is often tuned to compliment the key of the song so that it pretty much takes the place of the bass in the downbeats. But since the Tiesto referenced track seems to be the stumbling point... listen to it again... when the bass kicks in at about 1:17 please notice that it really does stay out of the way of the downbeat... even on the "1" beat.
Armin's referenced track has the bass on the "1" but it is sidechained to the kick.

This listing is a SERIOUSLY tough one. The references are more "Pop EDM" than "Festival EDM." Yeah the listing said try to appeal to the POP and HARDCORE EDM crowds... but I can't see those two crowds liking much of the same music. These referenced tracks split the difference pretty well... but seriously, I can't see the Hardcore crowd digging on these unless they were seriously liquored up... well.. okay, not even then.

Russell