Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

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Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by Brock1 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:12 pm

Hey all,

In an effort to be more productive and self sufficient, I have decided to try and record a simple tune for listing: TAXI #U150807FI.

In the past, I have been almost 100% reliant on other people to mic and mix for me. Consequently, engineering and production are not my strong suit. But I'm going to try and expand my horizons. I would appreciate any help y'all could give a relative (recording) newbie.

I want to record an acoustic guitar (steel string), a mandolin, and possibly a banjo.

I have the following mics:

Shure SM-57
AT 4033a
ADK A-51

Any advice you can give on setup and mic placement would be most appreciated. My studio is modest. I don't have a lot of baffling, etc and I have a semi-squeeky chair that I sit in. There will likely be reflections in the room. I use Logic Pro 9 to record.

Thanks!

P.S. Thanks to Andy G for encouraging me to break out of my comfort zone. Much obliged!

Mike

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by andysteinert » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:35 am

Hey Mike,

you have some decent microphones there! Maybe they are not the go-to mikes for guitar (banjo, mandolin), but you can surely get great results anyway.
Most important: the room. Try different places in your studio (without mike). You'll notice that the guitar sounds different (boomier, lighter, etc) when you play in different places in your room. Find a position where it sounds balanced/full/or whatever you want the instrument to sound. This can be a little guess-work in the beginning, but when you try it with all 3 instruments, you'll get an idea of this suggestion.
when the room is very reflective and adds a lot of reverb, you'll have to close-mike the instruments.
But if the reflections aren't too bad (when you like the guitar sound in your room), you can increase the distance. When you hear a guitar, you always hear the room, so a very close mike won't sound "real"
When you have someone to play the guitar for you while looking for a mike-position, cover one ear with your palm and turn your head to the guitar. This sounds a little weird, but is more or less what the mike will record.
The standard is 12th fret for guitar. You can change the angle of the mike (tiny moves have a big impact) and experiment with the distance.
Always record and check on your monitors (+ headphones), as this is the only way to see what it really sounds like.
There are some great stereo techniques, too, but for the beginning, try to get a good sound with one mike. Think of the roll of the instrument on your recordig. If everything sounds huge and close, maybe you'll get to problems while mixing. What is most important? What can be more in the background? When you mike it from a bigger distance, it naturally moves more in the background and vice versa.
When I started recording guitars, I put the mike facing the sound-hole (because that's how the guitar looks like), but this leads to a bassy, boomy, ugly sound. The 12th fret is well-balanced, the bridge gives you more strings/plucking.
Not too close sounds more natural, as a listener would normally listen to a guitarist

I hope this was helpful,

Go make some great recordings now :D

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by Brock1 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:26 am

Hi Andy S,

Thanks for the tips! I should point out that I am pretty much working solo at the moment, so I can't have anyone else play in a spot while I listen. Also, I need to stay relatively close to my keyboard so I can hit record, etc.

In the past, when other people have recorded me, we've always had trouble with the "little noises" of the studio: creaky chairs, the headphone cord tapping the guitar...even breathing! I'm not sure what there is to do about this? Maybe the mics are too sensitive? I'm not a gearhead. I own the 57 and the AT, but the other mic is borrowed. Which would you recommend to pick up the LEAST ambient noise while still giving the best overall sound?

I will give your tips a shot within the limitations of my situation. Any other advice you (or anyone else) may have is most appreciated!

Mike

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by andysteinert » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:36 am

Hey there,

the person who plays doesn't have to be a guitarist. He just has to strum the guitar to place the mike and check the volume etc. But I have to do that all by myself, too.
The background noise is a good thing, as it shows that your mikes are very sensitive. When I play guitar, I don't lean back in my cozy chair, but I go to the front point and try to sit still. Like a classical guitarist would do. Don't move, don't wear rings, keys or anything that makes a noise.
I use the Presonus Faderport (100$, maybe a little more). It's a remote control for DAWs. It's just great. You can extend the USB-cable if the delivered one is too short for you. Check out the reviews, I love it and it makes things so much easier. You can arm tracks, mute them etc.
Condenser mikes are far more sensitive compared to dynamic mics (like the Shure SM58).
You could also use a gate or a noise filter at mixing, if you have a constant noise from maybe a pc fan. If you play, it goes away, as the guitar is louder.
Maybe your cable is broken (but then you'd have a very heavy crackle) or your preamp isn't hot enough. Check the input/output/xx dB boost/gain. And use the mic-Input (3 holes), not the instrument cable thing

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by andygabrys » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:05 pm

glad you are taking the plunge Mike.

I would favor the AT 4033 for just about every application (other than mic'ing a guitar speaker or a snare drum where the SM57 would get first call).

If you get lots of ambient noises, like Andy S said, you have to try an eliminate that.

Most of it is common sense.

If the computer fan is noise, record farther away from the computer, or stick a couch cushion in between the computer and the mike.

If the chair is squeaky, go get one from the kitchen that doesn't squeak.

If tapping your foot gets in the mic, then either take your shoes off and play in your socks or get a small carpet sample and put it under you while recording.

If the breathing is too much when recording acoustic guitar, then record the DI from the pickup and mix it under the mic signal. Enough so it gives some beef and volume without the bad DI sound poking through - there won't be any breathing in the DI signal.

You can try less compression - which usually means having to play more evenly.

You can turn the mic so its still pointing at the 12th fret, but is pointing 20 degrees away from your mouth.

Or sit up straighter - its easy when recording guitar to get crouched over the guitar which usually means your mouth is right next to the mic. If in doubt, set up your phone and record a video of yourself playing. You might be surprised what you see. I was. I looked like the hunchback of Notre Dam.

If the bleed from the headphones is getting in the mic signal, try using a percussion loop instead of a click (anything that is rhythmic and continuous and a little softer sounding than the click so it doesn't bleed as much), or mute the click track (using automation on the click track in Logic) slightly before the last hit of the tune so you can get a clean fade out.

Try a remote control instead of a keyboard like Andy also suggested. Wait an extra couple seconds before hitting the space bar on all fade outs and held chords so that you will have a clean recording with no keyboard click. Or since you are using Logic, the third party Touch OSC app allows you to control the transport functions of Logic using an iPhone or iPad over wireless network. With Logic X - the logic remote is built in and works grew with an iPad.

the biggest thing is it just takes experimentation and practice and after a while you will have your typical recording levels figured out and where and how to sit to keep your breathing out of the mic etc.

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by jonnybutter » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:04 pm

Would just add that I have gotten good results with an expander (vs a gate) in this kind of scenario. If you are able to tune it well, you can avoid recording noise in the first place. Works for me in my semi-quiet room

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by Brock1 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:47 pm

Thanks for all the tips!

I did a trial run today. I would really appreciate feedback if you have time:

www.soundcloud.com/mikewestbrock

The song is listed as:

Giddy Little Ditty (Rough - No Mix)

Please note:

1. The drums are fakey canned drums. They are placeholder only. Real drums forthcoming.
2. These are 100% unmixed, raw sounds. I would appreciate any tips on EQ, mixing, reverb, compression, etc. Or, if you think the raw sounds I got are bad, please tell me why and how I can improve them.

Thanks to all!

Mike

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by mojobone » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:39 pm

The guitars sound okay; okay enough for 'indie folk/pop'; what are you using for the mallet/bell sound? That's the bit that I think needs attention. Compositionally, I'd say you're definitely in the ballpark; on third, even; ready to steal home. (sorry, international passengers for the baseball reference, ;) ) Regarding the 'fakey' drums, I probably wouldn't notice over typical TV speakers, but better is always better.

In your OP, you asked about mics, and if you recorded the guitars with the ADK, I'd say your technique needs improvement, (mic technique, not guitar) because if the instrument and the room are working, the ADK should sound stellar and the A-T should be a close second, but neither would sound 'indie' unless you had a particularly ratty guitar, and we know life's too short to put up with guitars that play/tune badly UNLESS they have more character than anything else at hand, and it's the RIGHT character for the ...role.

Me? I might have started with a 'character' mic preamp and the Shure SM57, IF we're talking about a dreadnought, maybe something different on a jumbo or parlor guitar, brand/model depending. Again, this is me talking, but a Gibson Advanced Jumbo? It's what a recorded flattop should sound like. For bluegrass in a parking lot, I'll take a Martin or Washburn, every time, but when tone's more important than volume, I generally swing vintage Gibson. Unless we're talking solidbodies, but that's another thread.

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by Russell Landwehr » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:12 am

It's sounding pretty durn good to me. Like Mojo says, authentic Indie there.

I'd like to add one thing to all the wonderful comments above about recording. The times that breathing and such are the biggest problem is in the quietest passages. For a full mix, this would be at the very beginning, during edit points, and on the ring-out at the end. Speaking from experience, a heavy sigh during the ring-out of the last chord on acoustic guitar is a nightmare. Sit very still and don't breath there. ;)

I didn't hear any of this in your song, this is just a general observation.

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Re: Assistance with recording for listing TAXI #U150807FI

Post by Brock1 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:21 pm

Mojo:

I'm very much a newbie when it comes to miking. I'm also not much of a gearhead. Weird, I know, considering I play guitar, but it's true...

I tried the different mics but ended up using the AT 4033a because it gave me the most consistent sound. As you say, my technique needs work, but...well, first time, ya know? :)

As for the guitar, yes, it's not the best acoustic, but I don't currently have access to a better one. A bad ass steel string is at the top of my "next guitar purchase" list, but for now, it's what I've got to work with. I figured it would be ok for an indie pop song, since the style is a bit more "lo-fi".

Thank you for your input!


Russell:

The 4033a seemed to have zero problem filtering ambient noise. And I actually did hold my breath on the ring out! That worked well, I think. The only extra noise is me hitting the guitar body with my pick a little bit. But with all the other instruments, you can't really hear it.

Anyways, I posted a "mixed" version on my soundcloud page. The "mixed" version still has canned drums...my drummer is working on the real part asap.

Thanks to all for your input!

Mike

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