Question about being a demo singer...

[bobbyyaps]

Hi again fellow passengers,

Question for you guys and gals:

I do most of my composing and performing on my own, and sing my own songs for pitching to labels. When I do work with others, I collab in the creative process, so I don't know much about how this work but:
I've got a songwriter who wants me to sing on a demo he's pitching to major label country artists (not collaborate in the creative process, just strictly singing), then mix and master. I'm asking for a flat fee, but what would happen should the song get picked up by a major artist? I know the singer on the demo isn't entitled to any "royalties" since he did not participate in the writing of the song. But can the singer ask for some sort of compensation/kick-back/bonus should the song make it big? I mean, after all, the vox helped sell the song! Or does the singer just get the one time fee and that's it? If so, if this writer is pitching to major artists, should I be asking for a more sizeable fee?

I know there's lots of collaborators, session players, etc. in this community, so how would this typically go down?

Thanks in advance....
-Yaps

[Len911]

I wouldn't pay a flat fee and bonus. Too many demo singers that only charge a flat fee. The bonus or nothing plan might be attractive, because then I wouldn't have to pay out unless the song made a lot of money, and I could dump hundred's of songs on you to spend time and demo and only payout on the hits,lol!

Does the songwriter get a kickback if you should be signed and not his/her song? After all it would have been their dime that got you exposure.

Don't be greedy, be fair. The needy might succumb to the greedy, only until they are no longer needy.

If you want to play it safe, stick to the standard operating procedures.

[eeoo]

It's up to you guys to negotiate basically. In my experience it's either you sign a work for hire contract (meaning you get a one time fee upfront to sing it and relinquish all rights to any ownership of the song) or you do your work in exchange for a percentage of the song. But if you can negotiate an upfront fee and a percentage of the song, well then even better for you. I guess it depends on how much leverage you have.

eo

[Kolstad]

It's all about the uses, imo.

Here's what I've encountered as a songwriter in short form:

Demo=flat fee (no buyout/work-for-hire)
Restrictions on use=business-to-business only (no direct sales/streaming/sync/licensing ect)

Recording for direct sales/ streaming/ licensing=additional fee(s) (different models: buyout/work-for-hire, one time gross fee, percentage of sync/licensing fees, artist exposure ect.)
No restrictions on use.

So, if they only want to use your vocals for a demo, to show publishers/ a&r ect. You should charge a flat fee, 100-150USD rates are very common. You would still own your vocal track, so they shouldn't be able to exploit it commercially (pitching is not considered commercial exploitation). But you would not be entitled to more (as your vocals are not being used to sell records).

If they want to exploit the recording for other uses, you should specify the terms you'd want. It can be anything from an additional fee, a gross sales fee (if the record gross more than 5000,- you get 5-10%), a percentage of the sync/licensing fees (anything from 10-50%), artist exposure where your name/ bio ect must be featured ect.

[andygabrys]

It's up to you guys to negotiate basically. In my experience it's either you sign a work for hire contract (meaning you get a one time fee upfront to sing it and relinquish all rights to any ownership of the song) or you do your work in exchange for a percentage of the song. But if you can negotiate an upfront fee and a percentage of the song, well then even better for you. I guess it depends on how much leverage you have.

eo

or you could charge up-front flat fee and a bonus of $X.XX if the song is signed (and not take part of the song %-age), but Len911 is right - that's why people in general go to demo singers under a WFH agreement. No strings attached.

[mojobone]

Hi again fellow passengers,

Question for you guys and gals:

I do most of my composing and performing on my own, and sing my own songs for pitching to labels. When I do work with others, I collab in the creative process, so I don't know much about how this work but:
I've got a songwriter who wants me to sing on a demo he's pitching to major label country artists (not collaborate in the creative process, just strictly singing), then mix and master. I'm asking for a flat fee, but what would happen should the song get picked up by a major artist? I know the singer on the demo isn't entitled to any "royalties" since he did not participate in the writing of the song. But can the singer ask for some sort of compensation/kick-back/bonus should the song make it big? I mean, after all, the vox helped sell the song! Or does the singer just get the one time fee and that's it? If so, if this writer is pitching to major artists, should I be asking for a more sizeable fee?

I know there's lots of collaborators, session players, etc. in this community, so how would this typically go down?

Thanks in advance....
-Yaps

If you're given a part to sing that's set in stone, that's obviously a work for hire gig, but when you're hired for your creativity? That could STILL be a work for hire, if you're perceived as or selling yourself as a professional studio vocalist. It's only when your contribution(s) as a writer substantially transform someone's composition that you might maybe consider asking for a share of the copyright, but I would be VERY careful, about that.


EDIT* I think I wanna clarify that a bit; if you're the gal that decides what gets cut, with the full weight of Big Machine behind you, you can change a word, get a third, just by walking into the writers' room. It's the nature of the business, and as Chuck Berry once noted, if you're Alan Freed or Dick Clark, sometime you don't even need to be in the room, because of the inherent power imbalance. When I'm hired as a sideman, I'm generous with my expertise, because that's part of what I'm paid for; when I'm working with writers as an artist I try to be just generally generous, especially with credits, because this is a relationship business and it pays to take care of the people taking care of you; if you don't have a great song, you don't have much.

[BenChurch]

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but here in the UK whenever a recording is made for release you have to apply for an AP2 License through PPL and list those who played on the recording. Then when that record is played, a portion of the license fee from whoever played it goes to all of the performers who appeared on it whatever terms their contract was under. Copyright is immaterial to these payments, it's purely about the mechanics of who performed. Of course anyone under a WFH agreement wouldn't then receive anything from PRS, where otherwise they might.

As I say, no idea if that relates at all to the US but it might be worth looking into.

[sansharbour]

Bobby
I agree with Mojo about singing note for note only then WFH

If anyone makes the song stronger by adding a creative contribution then there should be a bonus for the contribution

So I guess you have to find out exactly what the party wants from the get go

Don

[mojobone]

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but here in the UK whenever a recording is made for release you have to apply for an AP2 License through PPL and list those who played on the recording. Then when that record is played, a portion of the license fee from whoever played it goes to all of the performers who appeared on it whatever terms their contract was under. Copyright is immaterial to these payments, it's purely about the mechanics of who performed. Of course anyone under a WFH agreement wouldn't then receive anything from PRS, where otherwise they might.

As I say, no idea if that relates at all to the US but it might be worth looking into.

We (still) don't have performance royalties for studio musicians on the radio in the US, but there IS a framework for performances delivered through the internet, via SoundExchange.

[bobbyyaps]

Thanks guys! All helpful as usual...