Not sure how to take this...

[tlever]

The song was returned and screener said:

"The intro could be shortened and could also pack more of a punch right from the start for this "energetic" Alt Rock listing. Good work apart from that regarding the musical and melodic material, though the programmed/sampled drums could be substituted with more real-sounding drums to give the song a more authentic feel and vibe."

Agree the intro could be shorter. But I am a drummer and the drums were recorded live - all real drums played by myself. Sooo....not sure how to take that.

[hummingbird]

Could you post the listing and a link to the track? It might help us help you figure it out.

[tlever]

Hi - sorry about that. Here is the listing:

ENERGETIC, CONTEMPORARY ALT ROCK INSTRUMENTAL CUES are needed by the CEO of a NON-Exclusive Film/TV Music Library that gets great placements in tons of Reality TV Shows. Give them rockin’, Mid-to-Up-Tempo Cues that could be found on the same playlist as bands like Queens of the Stone Age, The Dead Weather, The Von Bondies, etc., etc., etc. Please review the following references to get in the ballpark of what they need: “My God Is The Sun” by Queens of the Stone Age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFca32_7YUU “I Feel Love (Every Million Miles)” by The Dead Weather: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98oMvKF-78Y “C’mon C’mon” by The Von Bondies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFGo5cqcxP4 Although the references have vocals, they’re only looking for Instrumental Cues for this pitch. Please submit well-crafted Instrumental Cues with a rhythmically and melodically engaging approach, and a fresh, believable Alt Rock sound. Instrumentation should sound authentic, like a real Rock Band, not a stiff, lack-luster, synthetic sounding performance. Give them guitar-based Rock Cues with short to no intros that are built around a central melodic theme, while layering instruments in and out to add interest, dynamics, and forward momentum. Please avoid guitar solos or anything that’s too frenetic, busy, bombastic, so your Cue doesn’t distract from any dialog/voiceover it might play under. Your submissions should be at least 2 minutes in length. Easy Edit Points and Non-Faded/Buttoned/Stinger endings will work best for this pitch. Do NOT copy or rip off the referenced bands or songs in any way, shape, or form. Use them only as a general guide for tempo, tone, and overall vibe. Broadcast Quality is needed (great sounding home recordings are fine

.

The track is called Forever Young and my page is:
http://www.taxi.com/timleverett

Sorry I don't have a SoundCloud page set up yet. Soon hopefully.

Thanks very much!

[toddgill]

Tim,

Nice track.

My submission to that same listing was also rejected due to "programmed drums" (only mine were in fact programmed drums)

From the reviewer:

"The intro works well in general, though the programmed drums could be substituted with real drums to give the song a more realistic rock band feel. As the listing stated: "Instrumentation should sound authentic, like a real Rock Band".

Admittedly, my track sounds "tight" and "produced" and maybe it is not "alt" enough (guitar could be more "loosely played", etc.) so the vibe may not fit the listing which is fine. I know I have much to learn about making drum kit sample libraries sound better, but when I read this screener's comment I thought: "how can I make my drum samples sound more like a real player on a real kit?" But then I realized I'm not really sure what that would sound like. I thought, even if I got a real drummer to record on real drums in the studio, it seems that in 2016 the current expectation for mainstream commercial music like "alt rock" is that all drums, guitar, bass etc. are all compressed to hell and then quantized(!) to where it sounds pretty unnatural and "perfect".

What's the first thing a mixer does when mixing freshly tracked live drums? In my experience they like to 1) quantize the kick and snare at a minimum 2) compress the hell out of it and 2) layer in sampled drums with drum trigger plug-ins, which all makes it the drums sound more like...a drum drum sample library!

Hearing that you actually recorded and mixed live drums and got the "your drums sounds too programmed" rejection reason seems to validate my thinking here.

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm definitely open to learning how to get commercially-acceptable drum sounds that sound more "real".

Your playing here sounds very good to my ear. And it's very commercial sounding and, well, kind of perfect! (No idea if you quantized drums and audio tracks or not)

If a track is not the right vibe for a listing, that's fine. But as for this particular comment in your case, the words of Inigo Montoya come to mind:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"

Here is my submission to this listing, btw: https://soundcloud.com/tgill1010/accele ... -the-turns

[MattCurious]

I like the track!

I don't think the comment was about the humanisation of the drums - I play as well, although to a lower standard, and it sounds to me that the playing is authentic.

I think the issue is possibly in the engineering or the mix - the snare has a thinness and a snap to it that I associate with pop punk bands of the late 90s / early noughties (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ht5RZpzPqw) and that I hear in a lot of samples, whereas the likes of QOTSA have a rounder, fatter, more lo-fi / band playing in a dirty room sound - this is the classic example for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88r_q7oufE

And it may be that what the screener means is that it sounds like you've chosen inappropriate sounds (or, in your case, the mix is more like the former than the latter)?

[MattCurious]

Hi Todd

Here are a couple of thoughts that are intended to be helpful. I'm jotting these down quickly before a phonecall for work, so forgive me if they sound a little blunt.

I don't think the techniques for mixing drums are quite that rigid - the desired sound is always (should always) be the driver for any movement of any control on a mixing desk; quantizing, layering and compression shouldn't be used as a matter of course - only to correct timing, adjust the sonics, and to control peaking (or for sonics or grab more headroom).

To my ears, the reason your drums sound more programmed than Tim's is because Tim's playing is "almost" metronomic - even world class drummers have some variation in their playing because they're human beings, and it's impossible to be precisely on the beat 100% of the time.

By contrast, if you quantize, you're putting 100% of the strikes on the beat 100% of the time - even the best drummers will have some variation in their kicks. I would want to quantize some for key punch points - maybe at the start of a bar - but leave some subtle variation in others.

There's also inevitably a bit of variation in the velocity with which a pro drummer will hit the actual drums - they get tired, they get excited, whatever.

Although better sample libraries build in some variation by having the same midi note trigger one out of a group of samples in either a round-robin or a random pattern, they can still sound very similar because they are the "best" samples of a good drummer taken in isolation (and I don't know but I imagine that for sampling purposes the strikes are recorded individually rather than as part of a drummer playing a groove, where your playing is affected by using all four limbs instead of one!)

So one thing you can do is play up the humanisation element by shifting some of the strikes around in the pocket so that they are still "in time" but have hair-of-a-millisecond differences in timing, which reflect the relative unreliability of human players. Similarly, you can emphasise the variation in strike power by subtly tweaking the velocity of the individual strikes up and down.

Also consider that the drummer will play differently in different sections, so there should not only be minor variations in velocity between individual notes, but also bigger variations in velocity between groupings of individual notes - in a live room, drums are overwhelming, so drummers have to tweak their playing to allow softer instruments to shine through (eg. 0:40 onward) versus bigger sections like 2:15 onwards. To me it sounds like your guy is playing on one level the whole time.

These are complete ball-aches, but worth it in my experience. It's a bit easier if you have separate midi lanes for each drum, too, as if they were separate audio tracks.

I've been through this same process and got better results on my drums - I hope it's useful to you.

[tlever]

I agree with you Matt. Todd - I do not and would not ever use quantization on real drums, although I guess it sounds like others sometimes do. So, no quantize on my drums in this song.

On a side note, I can provide real drums on songs for you or anyone else if you can sing!! I am always looking for vocalists and am willing to do trades.

[Paulie]

Great track! I don't think the drums sound too fake or quantized at all. I did notice that the h-hat had some frequencies that jumped out at me, almost like you are using plastic tips close to the hh mic. I could stand to hear the snare and bass drum a little more forward in the mix, but that might be personal preference.

I had a track returned recently with the comment that it sounded too MIDI... but I was playing a real sax. Sometimes you need to loosen up to make things sound more real I guess.

Keep this one around for future listings. If you can find any forwards for this listing check them out to see how the mix and drums sound.

Paulie

[Len911]

I'm inclined to think there might be something going on with the mp3 quality??
The hits or attacks on the cymbals or hihats sound crisp and clear, but after that they sound washy or phasey or something. In the very beginning of the song, the silent portions between the guitar, there seems to be a warbly, chattering noise?

What is the mp3 quality? Less than 320kbps? I know streaming quality isn't the greatest.

I don't have any experience live recording drums, though it would seem that cymbals might be a little tricky, maybe because they move more?

I can't comment on the drumming style, I don't know!

[Russell Landwehr]

Heya, Tim.

Yeah, the intro is a little (lot) too long. I don't know if that would have been a deal breaker by itself.

Like the others have noted, the only thing wrong with the drums is in the mixing. When I heard the snare, I was thinking "live" snare sound. You know, the kind that MUST cut through the mix, in a thin and anorexic sort of way. Also, like Len said, the "warbly" cymbals were something that stood out to me. However, the drums did NOT sound "MIDI" to me.

About the warbly crashes, when I run heavy compression or hit a limiter REAL hard on the drum mixbuss, I get that warbly pumping on my crashes. (it can even happen on the master buss if I'm hitting it too hard and the cymbals are really up in the mix) The other possibility is (like noted above) in your MP3-making software. When I make MP3s, I use a setting that says "highest quality." Most software will have that function. It makes a big difference.

Still, all that being said, it's a good track. Fix the snare and cymbals and you've got a winner. (and fix the intro too)

And, we've all had things returned for not being "real" when they are. You are in good company.

Regards
Russell Landwehr

Edit: another possibility is that you've got mics too close to the edge of your crash cymbals