To sub woof or not, that is the question

[Paulie]

I think I've spent enough on software and interfaces for a while, my most immediate need is a new set of monitors. Wondering if I should get a pair with a subwoofer as well... to me, my concern is that having one will give me a false impression of the bass levels in my mix. Is that the case, or would reference tracks be enough to make a proper comparison? Or, should I go in the other direction and spend that money on a set of NS-10s? (perfect world: get both)

[jdstamper]

Hey Paul,

I've thought about it from time to time (and I still do), but seems I'm getting pretty good mixes without it, having learned how my gear represents bass.

I think genre matters too, like if you're going to focus more on genres with big bass (EDM, dance / club mixes) it might be more useful there.

I'm interested to watch this thread and see other responses.

Jim

[Len911]

Sub bass in a small studio seems like it would invite many complications.

If you're one that rolls off the low end frequency or uses hp filters, or the use of a sub woofer results in you doing it more than usual,lol, maybe not the best idea.

Like Jim said, it's a reference, and knowing how to interpret what you are hearing.

I think you are correct about using reference tracks. With all off the visual analysis tools, probably be most useful in the sub bass area.

The sub bass might be one of those areas where those EQ curve matching programs really shine?? Apply a steep low-pass filter on your reference track, the source, and use the same filter on the target, apply the EQ curve of the source to the target, remove the filters and see what you get. Just an idea.

[cosmicdolphin]

Unless you have a very large space and a properly measure and treated room then I would say not.

Chances are it will give you the wrong impression of the low end of your track in a typical home studio.

A few questions:-

What monitors do you have now?

Why do you want to change them?

Do you work in a room that is acoustically measured / treated?

Mark

[lesmac]

My mileage has been that a sub in a small 2.1 system has helped.

I look at it this way. Every room has a headroom for room modes.

At low levels the modes aren't activated. Increase the volume and the modes come into play and start skewing the frequency balance.

A condition of hearing is illustrated by the Fletcher Munson curve. Short version is at low spl, the midrange comes forward and bass and highs recede. The inverse is the case at higher listening levels. No wonder its hard to get an even mix across the board in our small studios.

Most mastering engineers monitor low and high end detail at around 77dB or so. Their rooms are large enough to allow the low end to bloom and the placement of speakers and the listening position are all related to the room dimensions. They recommend that us guys as their potential clients use good quality headphones and use reference material to "learn" our rooms as well as referencing on different systems. The all say low end issues are the most common problem they encounter. It's endemic!

My sub is an 8 inch. I was able to position it in relation to my listening position where the frequency response wasn't affected as badly as would have been the case if the 8 inch drivers had been up in the listening triangle.

To position the sub it is placed where the engineers head usually is, i.e. part of the listening triangle with the satellites.

You can do the crawl around the room, preferably closer to the triangle, whilst playing a walking bass track or any music you are familiar with that features low end.

The method I used was to play pink noise through the system whilst using a spectrum analyser app on my phone to find the most even frequency response. That's where the sub went.

My room is still problematic. Playing a 1kHz tone, a movement of even 8 to 10 inches at the listening position results in a change of amplitude.

I would do some research. Their are things like crossover points in the speaker design etc. you might want to consider.

I recommend getting an audio app on your phone that has an spl meter and a spectrum analyser. They might not be perfect but they'll be better than your own guess. Whether you get new speakers or not it's handy to know what spl you are monitoring at.

[Russell Landwehr]

I have a subwoofer in my studio. It took me a while to get it dialed in so that I could hear (and feel) the correct frequencies without having too much of it. When testing my mixes in the office and in the car, when they were too thin on the bottom end I turned the subwoofer down. When I overshot it and had mixes that were too hot in the bottom, I turned my subwoofer up a teeny bit.

Since the subwoofer is powered and my Yamaha nearfields are also powered, I am using an active crossover before them so that I can control the sonic spectrum and don't have any big bad meanie bumps in the bottom end... plus, it keeps my nearfields from working too hard on the bottom end.

Russell

[mojobone]

Personally, I'm against them for this simple reason: phase relationships. Think about what happens when you have too many mics in a room; the more live transducers in a room, the more complex the phase relationships become. Sure, low frequencies are less directional but they still have a psycho-acoustic location. Why is that a problem? Many mixes contain stero information well below a sub's crossover point, so there's stuff you could miss having a single sub. For the same reason, I prefer coaxial speakers or sound 'cubes' over two or three-way monitors; it's just that much easier to control the variables. Add to the above that nearly all subwoofers are ported and thereby exhibit ringing and overshoot to some extent, hi-tech designs notwithstanding. My rule is eight is enough; why fight physics? A woofer at least 8 inches in diameter will move enough air in rooms most humans can afford, so I wouldn't go to the trouble unless the room is particularly space-challenged.

[funsongs]

When testing my mixes in the office and in the car...
Russell

For what it's worth - listening to & comparing mixes on a variety of systems after the first mix on studio monitors without subwoofer reveals quite a bit, and helps know where minor tweaks may be necessary. I found it interesting that a playback using the earbuds that came with my iPod-nano are remarkably similar in "honesty" to the monitor mixes.
(both the Mackie at engineer's place & my JBL 305s at home).
As stated before, the Sony MDR-7506s tend to boost the bass & make sparkly-crisp highs
and make the music 'sexy'... but they don't reproduce the honest, flat sound of monitors.

The answer to Paulie's question might begin with a question: what is it you WANT to hear?
Personally - I like bass you can feel, as well as hear;
and the level of it needs to be pretty much on an equal level between
the kick drum & bass instrument - neither overpowering the other.
Lock 'em down, imho. It's all about the groove.

Hope that's helpful, from the Peanut Gallery.
Your mileage may vary.

[HenriettaAtkin]

Looking at the pix of your studio, looks like you already have a pair of woofers right on the floor there.....

Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck.

[ochaim]

When I bought my KRK Rokit 8's 6-7 years ago, I was alsi considering whether I should get a sub as well. But when I read in a soundonsound review for them that the 8's provided enough low end that you dont really need a sub, that really sold it for me. Being even more of a novice at the time, I still knew having a sub would potentially create more problems for me, especially ones that I wouldnt even be aware of. So I was hoping the 8's was a good compromise.

Right or wrong, I got the 8's because I trusted SOS and they were within my budget.

NS10's have been discontinued, no? Yamaha has the new HS series now. The SOS review does mention the HS7's provide "enough" bottom end that you dont absolutely need a sub.

Just a 2 cents from an untrained ear. Hope that helps.