How can I get software drums to sound better?

[Jstonemorgan]

I have had this sport rock cue forwarded once and returned 3 times, the screeners that have returned the track have all said similar things about the drums not sounding realistic enough.

How can I get software drums to sound better and more realistic? Screeners have said I could replace the software drums for a real drum kit but I don't have the set up to attempt that and feel it would be to difficult for me right now.

Anyway any thoughts & comments on the track would be appreciated!

Jack.


https://soundcloud.com/jstonemorgan-1/ready-for-action

[TheElement]

yes I hear what they are talking about. Have you tried any drum software like Ez Drummer?
https://www.toontrack.com/product/ezdrummer-2/

Also a great one: http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/

[andygabrys]

hmmmm..... sometimes returns highlight one thing that makes you uncover a few things.

Definitely drums are an issue.

first a ref: http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.php?userid=12879 tunes like No Time For Sleep, One more Try, and esp Thorns in My Eye,

1) I couldn't hear the kick - after a while I keyed into it. So I think the mix could be better on the drums. More level kick, maybe more nail in the paddle on the kick too (1khz or 3 kHz or 5 khz). Slightly less hats. More authoritative snare.

2) Its a really syncopated rhythm, which might have been better served if it fit what the guitar and bass were doing more closely. I also heard a distinct lack of downbeats on the Kick - there were a lot of upbeats - IMO playing downbeats on the kick is what gives a bottom to the track, a foundation. So the pattern IMO needs work. If it were louder it might as is.

3) in general it sounds like a virtual drummer because the pattern doesn't vary enough at the right times. Slight amounts of fill here and there other than cymbal crashes. Not like Animal from the Muppets, but a slight snare flourish etc.

Keep in mind that there are many ways to do anything - this is what I hear in addition:

1) This cue has one level (lets call it GRRRRR!). It would benefit from an arrangement that started smaller and built more. And had at least one "edit point" where things reset to start building again.

2) It also feels like its panned narrowly, like the L + R guitars are at 45% L and R. There is no point really to not slam them out to HARD L AND HARD R. Gives you more space in the middle for everything else. You could bring some of those octave guitar melodies in to the center and they would feel more like a feature instead of just joining the buzz on the sides.

3) Bass is virtually absent. Its there doing its thing in the low end, but it doesn't sound aggressive enough to be a) heard against the kick b) hear supporting the guitars. More level isn't necessarily the cure for bass - but it does have to relate to the kick. Once the kick has more level, you might be able to turn up the bass slightly, but it needs distortion (either as an insert on the bass track or as a parallel effect so you can vary the amount of bass distortion in the mix more easily) that will help it be heard in the mid-range.

Hope that helps!

PS the drum packages Gav posted are both good, but what are you using now?

[Joseph]

What DAW/samples are you using?
when you quantize notes in pro tools, there is a randomize feature that helps it not to sound so stiff. I'm sure whatever daw you use has a similar feature. Also, try throwing in some more fills to help break up the monotony of loops. I would personally like to hear a bit more reverb on them as well, maybe that would help to mask the fact that they're sample drums. I've struggled with this a lot as well and, since I mostly stick to orchestral stuff, I haven't improved much so take my "wisdom" with a grain of salt.

-Joseph

[cosmicdolphin]

I think the guitars are cool but the drum pattern is just relentless, a live drummer would throw in way more rolls and little fills. It just sounds like a loop at the moment.

Also you can add a lot of life through automating your mix. Try pushing up the room mics for the chorus sections and then fading it back down. Do the same with your snare , you can often find a spot to ramp up level or midi velocity just very briefly.

Consider having a drop section where you strip it back to just bass and kick drum with some and then build it back up.

[Russell Landwehr]

yes I hear what they are talking about. Have you tried any drum software like Ez Drummer?
https://www.toontrack.com/product/ezdrummer-2/

Also a great one: http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/

I've never used ezdrummer, but the stevenslatedrums are good for this. My fav, though is https://www.xlnaudio.com/addictivedrums/

The thing about your drum track eq-ing is that the drums are thin. Both the kick and snare are really heavy on the top end of the EQ. I can hear the bottom end on the kick, but it sounds like you've boosted the EQ too heavy too low. The sweet spot for kick thump is around 80hz, but not too much of it. Getting bass and kick instruments to sound better can also mean NOT cutting those frequencies between 100-250hz.

As far as performance, variation in the velocities can trigger different samples in the right virtual drumset. But you've got to be sure to to make sense in the whole picture of the song.

One of the best ways to "program" or "perform on keyboard" drum parts is to picture a drummer actually playing it. And to do that you've also got to watch and study drummers and how they perform songs

Regards
Russell Landwehr

[johnlewitt]

Here's a worthwhile thread to read: http://forums.taxi.com/topic131293.html

I use EZ Drummer 2, but then I treat the drum tracks individually (manipulating them as I see fit), sending them via bus to the following; specific drums busses, parallel compression busses, and even room busses for different types of drum rooms.

John

[Jstonemorgan]

Thanks for all your help and suggestions!

For this track in particular I did actually use drum loops from a pack I'd purchased.
I do actually have Steven slate drums but I have still had trouble getting the samples to sound great and more realistic in my productions.
It's probably also because I'm not a drummer and am not playing the samples how a real drummer would play them. I don't seem to be to great at coming up with different drum parts after I've got my first idea for a beat.

Maybe another software would be easier for me to use? It looks like Ez drummer helps your create patterns which may be useful to me.

[andygabrys]

For this track in particular I did actually use drum loops from a pack I'd purchased.

the major problem with pre-played drum loops is for some types of productions there is not enough variation along the track. Its sort of like eq and compression presets - they might be what you need, or they might be way off and need major adjustment. So unless you structure your piece around your loops to make the loops sound in the best possible light, you can be itching for more "realness".

Another reason that loops are difficult for this guy, is that often the cheapest ones are a stereo drum mix. Then you pay more and get a full multi-track breakout, which you need to efficiently mix drums. Again - a "standard" drum loop might sound fine if the tune is mixed around it, but might really be lacking if you need to have a different sound to match your track.

I do actually have Steven slate drums but I have still had trouble getting the samples to sound great and more realistic in my productions.

For this type of tune if you buy the Chris Lord-Alge add-ons to the Slate Drums you should have it all in the bag. If you can't make them sound "real" its not the drums, its another issue.

It's probably also because I'm not a drummer and am not playing the samples how a real drummer would play them. I don't seem to be to great at coming up with different drum parts after I've got my first idea for a beat.

It doesn't take being a real drummer. It just takes ears and creativity. Listen to any song out there in a similar genre for ideas. Borrow those ideas.

There are enough drum loops out there (in MIDI format to drive all these virtual drummers) that you never really even need to program your own beat. Just find something close and start editing it. Usually that means moving kick notes in time to fit your guitar chords / bass parts. It might mean simplifying fills, or taking parts of fills and copying them to other sections.

Most DAWs have a way of moving a note relative to its original position as well - so if the kick is a little early compared to the downbeat, you can move it to another bar or beat and still have it be early. Both Pro Tools and Logic do this so i am sure every other DAW does too. So with this you don't even need to worry about killing the natural "feel" of these drummer played MIDI loops.

Maybe another software would be easier for me to use? It looks like Ez drummer helps your create patterns which may be useful to me.

Just about any VI drum package comes with loops included. Addictive drums, BFD, NI Studio drummer series, EZ drummer, Superior drummer. Then some DAW's have powerful built-in Drum VI's that have a lot of bells and whistles like Logic's Drummer plugin.

At the rally last year there was an example where a composer who is a friend of many of ours had played some guitar rock tracks for a great publisher (who again many of us have some kind of tracks with) and he's a composer and has great ears - the drums were so skillfully produced with the help of Logic's Drummer that he guessed they were real.

Some Third party Drum VI's allow building patterns within the drum VI and then having that triggered by your session - some you just drag the MIDI out into a track in your session. There are pros and cons to each approach. Usually staying within the VI allows customization options like looser, tighter, harder, softer, more / less complex etc. but bringing the MIDI into your session allows easier customization and editing to fit your particular song, as well as lightning fast copy / paste. And if you know MIDI in your DAW, you know how to make velocity changes etc.

There are also packages available that allow conversion of MIDI loops from different formats - Toontracks EZPlayer Pro is one such thing. It allows you to have a diverse range of loops produced for things like Addictive Drums, EZ Drummer, and Kontakt (like NI Studio Drummers) and convert them. If you have seen Addictive drums you know they map their hits to the MIDI keyboard in a totally different way than some. I use EZplayer in addition to a bunch of VI's and its pretty awesome.

Then there are different places to get extra third-party drum loops:

Groovemonkee
Oddgrooves
Toontrack
The Loop Loft
etc, etc, etc,

the other thing to worry about is the mix of the drums:

A lot of VI's again come with really serviceable mixer presets. Its honestly rare that I have to go in and do major surgery on a mixer preset. Its usually a matter of a slightly different level on some piece like the kick, or maybe sending some kick or snare signal out of the plugin for side chaining to a bass compressor or some added creative reverb like a gated kind of vibe.

So a lot of the art in efficiently using VI drums is to know when, and how much to cook the drums with extra processing. In Ezdrummer you don't have access to the mix plugins like you do in Superior or BFD etc and its easy to assume that EZdrummer presets need a bunch of eq and compression, but they are already eq'd and compressed. Part of the art is tuning your ears so they recognize what is "good" or "already processed enough" and when to add extra goo.

I again invite you to reexamine your piece from a compositional and general mixing standpoint instead of obsessing over the drums by themselves. I think you have the bones of a good piece with some additions and a remix.

[cardell]

Programs like Superior/EZ Drummer come with MIDI drum patterns, separated into: intro, verse. bridge, chorus patterns. Too easy!!

And...they come with great sounding presets!

Stuart