Any tips for commercial edits?

[coolhouse912]

I always work on the full session, never the 2 mix......

That was going to be my next question. So you actually create each edit from your tracks as it appears in the picture.
So far, I've just chopped & swapped the 2 mix sometimes ending somewhere in the middle & ringing out with verb or delay.

Gus' suggestion of working back from the end makes sense as well.

Thanks for all the comments & suggestions everybody. Realistically, a faster workflow is down the road, but now I have some new approaches to try out.

PS: Logic sure does look purty.

[Len911]

If you are using Cubase, is anyone using the time warp tool? Maybe it's the same as time stretching?? Or the audio warp. I see the audio warp has different algorithms like voice, drum and mix that probably gives a more optimal pitch shifting on the tempo adjustments. I suppose pitch shifting isn't needed if midi and tempo track adjustments were made prior to rendering of the audio, it might make the adjustments more difficult if there was a mix of midi and audio?? I don't know I'm just thinking.

It's probably easier to cheat in the beginning and set the different edit points in midi, and then play any live instruments along with the altered tempo midi tracks?

[kclements]

I do pretty much as Andy as well. I keep it all on one timeline, pretty much in that order.

However, one difference. Since 99% of my stuff is midi, I bounce to audio first, save that to a different alternative and work from there. I sometimes have to go back to the midi version for one reason or another, so it is there if I need it.

And sometimes, if I know it is a Cue that will be easy to edit down, I will work from the final stereo mix for the cut downs and save myself some trouble.

This is where Logic's alternatives feature has really helped my workflow.

I'm not asked to provide many cut downs anymore, and if I know that there will be, I try and take that into consideration while composing. Just having the thought in my mind that I will be doing cut downs helps during the writing/arranging process.

Cheers
kc

[kclements]

Hey Gabgar -

What we are talking about is taking a fully realized cue - maybe somewhere between1:30-2:30 minutes in length and from that cue, creating a :59, :30 and a stinger version - trying to keep the integrity of the cue - be it the feel or motif, or vibe or what have you. Also, because it is a cut down of an existing cue - you don't want to change the tempo. All of the cues should be interchangeable with the full length version.

(Personally, I am finding fewer libraries asking for cut downs, as the editors are more than able and will cut the audio as needed.)

If you music is completely loop based, then it may work to use your solution. But 99.9% of the time, you don't want to do a fade out for film/tv. They want a button ending, meaning you have a final chord that rings out. The fade that Andy is talking about is the final ring out or reverb - not the music itself. So you would have hit of the last chord, and depending on the mood of the song, either fade out the tail quickly or less so. A big orchestral hit may have a very quick fade out (after the last chord) where as a melancholy piano cue might have a long fade as you let the piano chord decay naturally.

So the trick is to give the publisher a :59 or :30 second version of your cue, keeping the overall vibe, and trying to use the parts of the cue that give it that particular something and condense it into the shorter length. You still need a button ending, so it isn't as easy as just fading out at :57, say.

Hope that answers your question.

Cheers
kc

[eeoo]

If I know I'm working on a cue for a publisher that wants cutdowns I will often play my 15 second and stinger cuts live, I'll just wait a certain amount of bars after the main ring out and play them in live again.

And yes, i always edit from the entire session, not the stereo mix. I usually do a "save as" for my 60 and 30 sec edits so I can chop things up at will without worrying about messing up the main session.

[andygabrys]

Total newbie question but wouldn't you just set the playhead (I have Logic Pro X) to the seconds in question, then adjust the BPM for 4 bars, keeping this simple for a 4/4.
So for this video example I found out for 15 seconds for a 4/4 for 4 bars, the BPM should be set to 64.

So now this will loop properly for 15 seconds, if it needs to, but it will also end exactly at 15 seconds, or is the .5 second fade out required.

Remember, total newbie question, I'm learning right now.

Here's the video of that 15 second audio I did in Logic Pro X.

https://vimeo.com/191925522

in addition to what Kayle wrote above:

Yes thats kind of the idea but notice the second time you played it through there was a very short reverb tail (to my ear) that went beyond the 15 seconds.

The idea with these timed edits is to make 15, 30, 60 second edits of a full piece of music that can be placed under commercial ad buys (which are 15, 30, 60 seconds commonly) starting from silence and ending on silence. They can't make a 61 second ad spot.

So the challenge is to make a piece of music that may be any tempo start and end within 30 seconds for example. The calculation of how many BPM will make a 15 second piece of music isn't really applicable in the real world as we don't always compose as 60 and 120 ppm or whatever the number is.

In addition, when a publisher uses a 30 sec cutdown that we do, the idea is that there is a composed ending - if they wanted to just do a quick fade right in the middle of the action they could do that on the original mix - no need for a cut down. You can find any number of popular commercial songs that do just that - fade or quick fade to be out by 30 seconds.

There is a little bit of science and trial and error that makes a good commercial edit. There might be 7 or 8 sections in a really tight commercial edit, and having your piece ramp through different orchestration / thickness / moods in that time might fit what the picture editors need. And that's easy to do with a 2 min+ piece that goes through different arrangement over that time - once its cut down it will "switch gears" in a number of different spots. This type of ad seems to go in and out of style. In ads where there is an indie type song playing behind the picture, the song floats along and may not Mickey-Mouse all the scene cuts.

Same things goes for the ending - sometimes a piece that goes to 29 seconds and then ends with a BANG! and a virtually inaudible reverb tail can be the right thing. Sometimes it might hit the last note at 26 seconds and have a long fade on the last note. Compounding matters are the type of commercials that have a company mnemonic at the end - they can't really have the music playing under that at audible volume - so those spots might have music totally out at 26 or 28 seconds.

That mnemonic is heard in spots like Mcdonalds or Intel. Sometimes the mnemonic is incorporated in the music itself as is often done for McDonalds.

But the idea is to have your piece have a usable full length mix, a stinger that can be used to end the piece anywhere, and a usable set of 15, 30 , 60 cutdowns that can be used for quick commercials and promos. And the editor can always take your full piece and make their own edit that "Switches gears" at the right places for the picture.

Hope that Helps.

[Telefunkin]

Hi Mike,
I'm in the 'create separate sessions' camp, not that I'm saying that's best but it works for me.

I usually keep a safety copy of the main mix, then hack at it to create the alternate versions, and I most often work longest to shortest. Sometime's that doesn't give me enough flexibility though, and I have to start with the main version each time.

Working back from the ending is also common method for me. I usually start by placing an end marker at the last audible point and then another marker a minute (or whatever the required duration) back from that. Listening from there gives me some sense of the musicality of the editing point. If I'm lucky, there might be a distinct last verse and chorus or something I can capture and get close to the duration I want. Otherwise, I keep shifting the window and editing the content to get the duration right.

'Tweaking' methods might include:
- adjusting the length of the the last note ring-out fade (whilst trying to keep it sounding natural).
- muting a bar or two of the lead instrument so that the rest forms an intro.
- pasting the intro (or part of it) to the start of a section.
- shortening a verse or chorus to half its length.
- tacking on a riser to gain an extra second or two on the front end.
- converting an outro with ring-out into a simpler final hit.
- etc.....(you get the idea)

The advice I was given is that shorter is better than longer, and by no means should you exceed the length of the time slot, ie its better to submit a 28-second edit with a 2 second ring-out than to send a perfectly precise 31 second piece. 5-second 'stings' can be tougher to get right for that reason, but there will always be some 'wiggle room' if you look hard enough for it. For me, the editing seems to go easier with faster tempo pieces, but maybe that's just me.

Finally, more advice I was given is to keep the mix volume for the edits the same as the full mix. Therefore, I never adjust the track volumes or the plugins once the full mix is finalised. Bus compressors can react differently if you take out some instruments (eg removing the lead instrument to produce a 'soundbed' mix), but hopefully the end is result is close enough because we don't slam master bus compressors do we! [.....or maybe the EDM guys have something to say here.]

All this used to seem a bit daunting but now I find it another enjoyable part of the process that brings its own creative challenges. Maybe I'm weird, but I get a bit of pleasure from carving a neat 60 or 30-second edit from track that was never created with that in mind.

Anyway, that's my approach at present, but please always take the advice of the more seasoned pros way ahead of mine.

I wonder who edited the 'Friends' sting that none of us will ever get out of our heads? The Rembrandts must be eternally grateful for that one!

[coolhouse912]

Wow!

Take a few days off to eat some turkey & put up some decorations & this thread explodes! When I first posted, I worried that no one would reply.

Great advice here. Thanks everyone for jumping in.

[edmondredd]

timeline edits.jpg

this thread has got legs!

interesting to hear how everybody does it.

I always work on the full session, never the 2 mix. Since I always buss to reverbs and delays instead of putting them on the individual tracks I don't commit all tracks to audio. Its just wasted time for the way I do things. I want to be able to massage things if tails don't sound right.

I never save as a new project file. I always work in the main session. When I am done with a cue, its got one project file that I can open and do anything I need to the session. Usually if I ever have to go back in its to make stems for a commercial placement.

Looking at my session, I have the Full version starting first in the timeline.
I copy that down the timeline and leave a few bars between the Full and what will become the 60.
I hack and slash the 60 into shape.
I copy the 60 down the timeline again leaving a few bars between it and the next which will become the 30.
I hack and slash the 30 - usually by this time any edit points have been hacked out and its 30 sec of "meat"
Same deal for a 15 or a bumper
Then the last thing is the Sting - which I leave with a long fade as the main version.

A lot of this workflow I developed specifically because there are some simple key commands in Logic that do a lot of this almost automatically (its still got other warts though of course )

I can do nearly the same thing in Pro Tools but the specific steps are slightly different - like I use Selection Markers to identify bounce regions.

So Left to Right:

Full, 60, 30, 15, Sting.

see above. Shows automation for fades on master track.

I am having some hart times following up with that Andy,
Could it be possible to have a small video screen grab to further expand on that? I would love to know more about your workflow, especially that I do use logic as well, but go for different sessions every time,
Thanks a lot,

[andygabrys]

HI Edmond,

Sorry I didn't see this response. If I can remember to make a video I will post it. Otherwise there might be something on YouTube that deals with it.

Cheers,

Andy