Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

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Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by GBall » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:10 pm

I’m sorry for imposing for a minute. I basically want to find out if a program I wrote just for me, whose purpose is to automate the creation of other sync related audio deliverables, is of any value to anyone else. Could be a total lack of interest… :slight_smile:

May I ask your thoughts?


This is about the creation of various additional audio deliverables that a composer may be required to produce for a single work, and to deal with all the rules a specific client may have so that the client can ingest those files in as easy a manner as possible.

A major objective was to separate an original work in your DAW etc, from the specific requirements for delivery that a particular client might have. So if you create the work before knowing the client, or deliver a work to more than one non-exclusive clients, then this is a way of creating a new set of deliverables adapted to the new client’s rules quickly and without significant extra work. Since these client preferences are stored separately, once they are created you only have to refer to them by name - not enter all of the various settings and details each time you need to use them.

THOSE DELIVERABLES INCLUDE:

Masters - this option enables the creation of one or more masters in different audio formats from the original; converting them to different sample rates and using different file naming conventions as needed.
  • It includes metadata and artwork in the master if the audio format supports it, and has the ability to modify the often overloaded “comments” tag to fit a client’s standard.
  • It also gives the option to create a video version (for a demo reel perhaps) using just a still image, or combine the master with other video.
Stems - this option enables the creation of stems from individual instruments or multi-tracks, and similarly converts them as described above for masters. Stems are exclusive - an instrument/track can only be in one stem at a time.
  • It works by comparing each to a set of stem definitions, which are mostly a list of instruments or instrument/track naming conventions. For example, the stem definition for woodwinds may be looking for tracks that contain Clarinet, Flute, etc.
  • It recognizes the difference between tracks like “Solo Clarinet” and “Clarinet” should you choose. For example to allow you put your solo parts in a different “solo” or “concertino” stem.
  • Electronic instruments work best when you define a naming convention to help decide into which stems they best belong (Sound FX, background pad, lead, etc.) All stem definitions are under your control.
Alts - this option enables the creation of alt mixes from individual instruments or multi-tracks, and similarly converts them as described above for masters.
  • An alt mix here means to include or exclude various parts in a Alternate master. Common examples are “Bass and Percussion” , “underscore”, “no vocals”, etc.
  • They rely upon a similar set of Alt definitions. Unlike stems, a track can be in several alts.
Cuts - this option allows you to create multiple cutdown versions of a master, based on time codes that you specify for the work.
  • The program has the ability to combine multiple segments into a cut. This may include adding or reducing, repeats, placing a stinger on the end of a short cut, etc.
  • There is an option to set the crossfade between each of those segments
  • There is a follow-on option to also create stems and alts for each Cut. This may be most useful for the longer cuts (EG: 2 minutes) from a larger work.
Archive - is just a convenience option at the end of the process to place copy of your deliverables in a different drive/cloud location. The intent is to avoid an additional manual step that I might otherwise put off doing.

While you can enable any of these options individually and run the program manually, it normally monitors a particular staging directory looking for any changes. That allows for a one click export from Dorico or DAW to that staging directory, so that once the program is reasonably sure that the exports are finished, it takes over to complete all of the steps which you have enabled.

As it stands today, the program uses a spreadsheet to store metadata on each work, and to hold various formatting options, artwork, etc… I basically wanted a searchable record for myself of what I was working on anyway - one that that wasn’t tied to any proprietary software - and I wanted to use to it drive the process of creating other deliverables.

It isn’t required, but it has worked well for me to store the spreadsheet and staging directory in a shared place such as Google Drive. That has let me compose on one machine, kick-off an export to staging, and have a different machine pick up those changes automatically and run with the process.

I’m mostly thinking about if its worth the effort to package up, pretty up, and document for other people’s use. I don’t want to get too distracted from actually writing music.

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by Casey H » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:31 pm

Sounds like it could be as complicated (or more) to feed the info to the program as to just do it.

My thoughts:
(1) The first is would it work with any DAW? It would have to work with most of the major ones for it to have wide appeal.
(2) There are lots of differences in requirements from library to library for alts and cut-downs. That's why most folks don't spend much time on that until they get a deal with a library and know their specific requirements.

Keep in mind that 15, 30, 60 second & stinger cut-downs often need a lot of customizing for the given work to make them work best. Each track's cut-downs may require different copying, cutting, pasting, bringing instruments in and out as needed, etc. And to make matters worse, some libraries want them exactly 30 or 60, others want the ring outs done by 29.5 or 59.5. Some want bumpers/stingers that are 15 seconds, others 5-10, etc.

Oh, and some want all the alts to line up, even if that leaves empty space in the front of an alt. Others want the empty space removed.

It's a wild west out there when it comes to these deliverables.

So my strong guess is this wouldn't work well.

But if you want a program that helps generate mood words for libraries, I got a great one. It only runs on PC though, not Mac.

:D Casey

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by cosmicdolphin » Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:42 am

GBall wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:10 pm
I’m sorry for imposing for a minute. I basically want to find out if a program I wrote just for me, whose purpose is to automate the creation of other sync related audio deliverables, is of any value to anyone else. Could be a total lack of interest… :slight_smile:
Interesting but much of what you've listed seems to be tasks that can be done natively and efficiently within the DAW enviroment already ( I guess it somewhat depnds which DAW you use but broadly the main ones have similar options ) :

Masters - I use Export Presets for each library so it will remember the settings for bit depth sample rate etc. used by each publisher so once it's set I don't need to remember. I don't personally bother with adding metadata as that is usually done on the library end within their own platform as part of the upload/ingestion process. However there is a screen in the DAW where you can put it in if you want and store it as part of a template so it can apply your basic info automatically.

Stems - If you organise your DAW session into the equivelant of Track Folders ( some DAWs use different nomenclature ) then you can group all instruments for your desired stems together, then it's simply a case of generating an export per folder which in my DAW can be done in a couple of clicks and it will create a name for each stem based on whatever criteria you specify i.e. Projectname - Foldername - STEM . This is all built into an Export preset so once it's set up it's easy to repeat.

Alts - This is just usually a case of muting any of the folders ( or sub folders ) you don't want in the mix so you may have a Guitars Folder that generates a stem of all guitars but it might contain a couple of subfolders of " Rhythm " & "Lead" so all I usually need to do is mute the "Lead" subfolder and re-export the track to create my No Lead Alt and so on.

Cuts - There are two schools of thought, either create them in the DAW session or cut up the Wav in a stereo audio editor. I've tried both ways and find the latter much faster and the results are usually just as good. There is a knack to doing them so I am not sure how a program would figure this out as it can be tricky even when you know what you're doing.

Archiving - In my DAW the default setting is that all files that belong to a project are inside a main folder with a couple of sub folders for auio, midi etc. so arching them is simply a case of copy-pasting that folder over to a 2nd external drive. I also used to copy them to the cloud but I don't bother now - Once everything is delivered it's highly doubtful I will need to open that project again so two copies I feel is enough.

I fill in my own spreadsheet as I go, there's over 600 cues on it now but it doesn't include meta data just a genre

Mark

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by GBall » Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:00 am

Casey H wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:31 pm
Sounds like it could be as complicated (or more) to feed the info to the program as to just do it.

My thoughts:
(1) The first is would it work with any DAW? It would have to work with most of the major ones for it to have wide appeal.
(2) There are lots of differences in requirements from library to library for alts and cut-downs. That's why most folks don't spend much time on that until they get a deal with a library and know their specific requirements.

Keep in mind that 15, 30, 60 second & stinger cut-downs often need a lot of customizing for the given work to make them work best. Each track's cut-downs may require different copying, cutting, pasting, bringing instruments in and out as needed, etc. And to make matters worse, some libraries want them exactly 30 or 60, others want the ring outs done by 29.5 or 59.5. Some want bumpers/stingers that are 15 seconds, others 5-10, etc.

Oh, and some want all the alts to line up, even if that leaves empty space in the front of an alt. Others want the empty space removed.

It's a wild west out there when it comes to these deliverables.

:D Casey
Thanks Casey for giving your thoughts: Yes, I have it working with about any DAW I've run across - unfortunately, I've used too many of them. I agree so much about the differences and the wild west - its why I wanted a quick way to note encapsulate them in the meta for that client, make it easy to apply the differences for different clients, and to apply them easily after the fact. Essentially you create a new row in the formats table for that client with their settings. Its a bit coded, but even if I don't explain, you probably get the gist of an entry for naming alts for a certain client as: !album! !title!-!composer! (ALT) !alt_name! Just for me personally, it is about as fast to do that as it is to rename one file, and then the multiplier factor of having many alts kicks in. Plus they kick in again for the next track for that client. I'm assuming right now that they want the alts and stems to line up; removing empty space would use some of the "cuts" functionality.

I'm currently storing cut information with the metadata for each work - so it varies. Yes you have to enter information about the copying cutting and pasting that you want to occur. It is done by timecode: EX: 00:00:00:00-00:00:25:10, 00:01:00:00- 00:01:05x1500 is a way of saying how you want to snip two segments and put them together for a certain cut. x1500 is an optional cross fade between them. So as it stands, if you wanted to adjust the ring out from 30 to 29.5, that is simple to do. Yes you have to update the entry -but its hopefully less effort to do it in that one place, and have not only cut down masters, but cut down alts follow along.

I totally agree that some pieces could be more complicated. I've personally focused on trying to look ahead and anticipate issues in the delivery process. I try to be smart in how the work is constructed to make including/excluding etc. easiest. I think that cuts are more work regardless - what I'm mostly aiming for is the repeatability to output them all again if you make change, the efficiency for many deliverables - not magic, sigh.

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences.

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by Casey H » Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:11 am

It might work for you and that's good. Everyone's work flow and thought processes are different.

I'm a software engineer and one thing I thought of reading your description of programming the alts is: How many times would a user have to do trial and error to make sure they programmed correctly? The time could be worse for people (other than yourself) than just doing it. I can't see automating cut/copy/pasting because in order to know what needs to be done, you've got to work with the tracks and listen. At that point, all you have to do is export the newly created alt.

Don't mean to be a negative Nancy here. I could be wrong as my wife will tell you I always am!

:D Casey

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by GBall » Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:41 am

cosmicdolphin wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:42 am
GBall wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:10 pm
I’m sorry for imposing for a minute. I basically want to find out if a program I wrote just for me, whose purpose is to automate the creation of other sync related audio deliverables, is of any value to anyone else. Could be a total lack of interest… :slight_smile:
Interesting but much of what you've listed seems to be tasks that can be done natively and efficiently within the DAW enviroment already ( I guess it somewhat depnds which DAW you use but broadly the main ones have similar options ) :

Masters - I use Export Presets for each library so it will remember the settings for bit depth sample rate etc. used by each publisher so once it's set I don't need to remember. I don't personally bother with adding metadata as that is usually done on the library end within their own platform as part of the upload/ingestion process. However there is a screen in the DAW where you can put it in if you want and store it as part of a template so it can apply your basic info automatically.

Stems - If you organise your DAW session into the equivelant of Track Folders ( some DAWs use different nomenclature ) then you can group all instruments for your desired stems together, then it's simply a case of generating an export per folder which in my DAW can be done in a couple of clicks and it will create a name for each stem based on whatever criteria you specify i.e. Projectname - Foldername - STEM . This is all built into an Export preset so once it's set up it's easy to repeat.

Alts - This is just usually a case of muting any of the folders ( or sub folders ) you don't want in the mix so you may have a Guitars Folder that generates a stem of all guitars but it might contain a couple of subfolders of " Rhythm " & "Lead" so all I usually need to do is mute the "Lead" subfolder and re-export the track to create my No Lead Alt and so on.

Cuts - There are two schools of thought, either create them in the DAW session or cut up the Wav in a stereo audio editor. I've tried both ways and find the latter much faster and the results are usually just as good. There is a knack to doing them so I am not sure how a program would figure this out as it can be tricky even when you know what you're doing.

Archiving - In my DAW the default setting is that all files that belong to a project are inside a main folder with a couple of sub folders for auio, midi etc. so arching them is simply a case of copy-pasting that folder over to a 2nd external drive. I also used to copy them to the cloud but I don't bother now - Once everything is delivered it's highly doubtful I will need to open that project again so two copies I feel is enough.

I fill in my own spreadsheet as I go, there's over 600 cues on it now but it doesn't include meta data just a genre

Mark
Thank you for sharing Mark. For sure you can do it by muting etc, and I know we all respect anyone else's preferred way of working. The question for me - how many times do you have to do it though? How many exports do you have to go through and generate each time, how much effort do you have to repeat if you decide to make a tweak - that sort of thing. For me it is one click to start it off and then go get a coffee.

I wrote it first for me - so the archiving was just for me and not very exciting I know. It's exactly the "I don't bother" part that I'm guarding against - for myself. Drives/storage are cheap, and I feel like a lot can happen, but again that's me. If anything, I am sometimes tempted to rely on the ability to generate everything again from scratch with that one click and so store very little - ESPECIALLY all these different deliverables - but then that voice in my head kicks in. :(

You can add or fill in as much as what you want as far as meta-data. One thing I'm doing is pre-populating the spreadsheet from the export as much as I can - with your 600 cues I bet you aren't all that thrilled by doing it either. One of the things I use metadata in audio for - if you do an upload to Disco, or a client is using Disco or similar - then that metadata is used to pre-populate the fields in the library. They will adjust them as they will, but its less typing. Plus as I learn what they do... I adjust accordingly. it's one of the reasons I keep mood, bpm, key, grouping - besides my own need just to find things when I need them. :)

Cuts are cuts, sigh. The best thing I know is to try and write with preplanned edit points for cuts in mind. When I do that well, it's mostly a matter of placing time code markers, and then capturing what I need from them. I respect what you're saying, though I'm attempting to avoid using your other option in most cases. It's that whole - if you have to do it more than once, there ought to be a way to automate it - mindset.

I much appreciate the conversation.

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by GBall » Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:57 am

Casey H wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:11 am
It might work for you and that's good. Everyone's work flow and thought processes are different.

I'm a software engineer and one thing I thought of reading your description of programming the alts is: How many times would a user have to do trial and error to make sure they programmed correctly? The time could be worse for people (other than yourself) than just doing it. I can't see automating cut/copy/pasting because in order to know what needs to be done, you've got to work with the tracks and listen. At that point, all you have to do is export the newly created alt.

Don't mean to be a negative Nancy here. I could be wrong as my wife will tell you I always am!

:D Casey
Negative Nancy is just as appreciated and needed. :) You mean cuts? for me, I'm dropping Hit Point or Time code markers in there (depends on your favorite tool) where you would do them. You can listen or experiment in the DAW as you like to set them. I hear you. Advantages (JMO) that I see lean towards repeatability for less complicated cases. I know I'm going to want stinger1 and stinger2 to be a certain way. I don't have to actually go in and do the manual work each and every time. I know pretty close what I'm going to do for a certain kind of trailer.

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by cosmicdolphin » Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:58 pm

GBall wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:41 am

Thank you for sharing Mark. For sure you can do it by muting etc, and I know we all respect anyone else's preferred way of working. The question for me - how many times do you have to do it though? How many exports do you have to go through and generate each time, how much effort do you have to repeat if you decide to make a tweak - that sort of thing. For me it is one click to start it off and then go get a coffee.
As mentioned I can generate stems with a few clicks and go make a coffee. Then it's normally 2 or 3 Alt mixes which is basically muting a few things and exporting ...but it depends on the library as they all want something slightly different.

I also wouldn't reccommend trying to do any of this work before a track is accepted as requirements vary from publisher to publisher and also you might have to change something. So it's only ever done post acceptance. You should never have to go back and tweak anything once the library has accepted it.
GBall wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:41 am
You can add or fill in as much as what you want as far as meta-data. One thing I'm doing is pre-populating the spreadsheet from the export as much as I can - with your 600 cues I bet you aren't all that thrilled by doing it either.
That's my point, each library I supply has it's own upload platform and within it are dropdown boxes for the metadata descriptors ....you don't choose your own , you choose from their pre-built list. If you do your own in advance for unsigned tracks it could end being a futile exercise as it probably wouldn't be the same what's used by the library.
GBall wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:41 am
One of the things I use metadata in audio for - if you do an upload to Disco, or a client is using Disco or similar - then that metadata is used to pre-populate the fields in the library. They will adjust them as they will, but its less typing. Plus as I learn what they do... I adjust accordingly. it's one of the reasons I keep mood, bpm, key, grouping - besides my own need just to find things when I need them. :)


Ah okay, I am not using Disco. Most of what I make is signed directly so there aren't a tons of spare tracks to keep tabs on. If I want to know the key or BPM of anything I just drop it into DeCoda and it tells me. I did used to have those columns on my spreadsheet but find DeCoda quicker now so I got rid of those columns.

If there was an App that could make 30 &15s cutdowns and do it well I would use it. I can't see how it could though as there is a bit of an art to it.

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by Casey H » Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:02 pm

cosmicdolphin wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:58 pm
I also wouldn't recommend trying to do any of this work before a track is accepted as requirements vary from publisher to publisher and also you might have to change something. So it's only ever done post acceptance. You should never have to go back and tweak anything once the library has accepted it.
+1
cosmicdolphin wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:58 pm
That's my point, each library I supply has it's own upload platform and within it are dropdown boxes for the metadata descriptors ....you don't choose your own , you choose from their pre-built list. If you do your own in advance for unsigned tracks it could end being a futile exercise as it probably wouldn't be the same what's used by the library.
Not totally true. I often use my free form tags (e.g. tag a, tag b, tag c) as a reference when using a library's drop downs to know what to look for. Some of my libraries have ridiculously long drop downs or make it hard to know what their "resident" tags are. I try to maintain a spreadsheet with stuff like moods, genres, sound likes, description, co-writers and their PRO info, etc.
cosmicdolphin wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:58 pm
If there was an App that could make 30 &15s cutdowns and do it well I would use it. I can't see how it could though as there is a bit of an art to it.
++++++1

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Re: Automated Creation of Stems, Alt mixes, and Cuts

Post by Paulie » Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:16 pm

I assume this is a PC-friendly app, not a Mac app? For Mac users, long time Taxi veteran CK Barlow has an intro course on Keyboard Maestro, a very powerful scripting editor that lets you create myriad automated tasks. Pretty sure she has one to create alt mixes... it's a cool tool, but not for beginner composers not familiar with how to automate processes or deal with scripts, etc.
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