Co-writers and Revisions

[Tree]

I'm looking for some advice on how to work with and help a co-writer. I have a co-writer (I'll call him Fred to protect the innocent) Fred doesn't take well to criticism and revisions of his songs/ideas. In trying to make the songs the best they can be myself and other co-writers will put in our ideas and suggestions. We do our best to say good, positive things about the songs as well but try to add in thoughts to make the songs even better. Also we offer to help during this process so Fred doesn't have to make revisions on his own.

It seems that every time we make any suggestion on a song Fred gets extremely defensive, starts talking about how art is subjective and takes time, how we're just guessing what other people are going to like and well, the conversations always end badly with everyone in a gruff defensive mood (not a good mood to be in when trying to be creative). I can appreciate his points, but I also want to make money on the songs so want to make the songs as good and sell-able as possible.

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share to help me find the best way to get through this? Should I just let it go and say the songs will be what they will be? Is there a way I should mention revisions that might be easier for him to handle? Thanks for any thoughts!

Theresa

[japaneseprincess]

its a difficult issue, isnt it?

luckily i had no issues with my co-writers, they all have professional attitude to make our music work.

we all need to let our pride go to work with others. when i was in a band while ago, i had so much pride in what i did. i was the leader of the band and i thought i knew what i was doing, i refused to accept constructive criticism from my drummer and bass player because it hurt me to change the way i wrote the tunes. so i guess i know how Fred is feeling. it hurts to change something that we "think" its great.

also it helps not to write with friends that we know well in real life, esp. they live locally etc... there are exceptions, ofcourse. music making is a brutal business, we need to be so honest with each other to make it work. personally i dont know if its a good idea wasting your time working with him if you guys are feeling uncomfortable right now.

right now i dont care if i have to get rid of what i think its the best part of a song and replace with something even better which is written by co-writer.

but to get to this stage, i did struggle with my pride. its all about letting it go. im ready to face any criticism.

[mojobone]

Songs have to play by the rules; people don't.

[mazz]

I think you need to take a step back and try to get on the same page as to what your ultimate vision is for the songs you write.

If everyone but Fred wants to try to sell the songs, then I think you'll know where you stand and can make a decision from there.

If Fred insists that he wants to sell the songs too, then he must agree that there will be times that the songs will need to be revised in order to make them more saleable, and that is the process, and that it is not personal.

Unfortunately, it seems that Fred is not ready to be a professional writer, and you and the other writers need to decide if Fred's contributions to the songs are a strong enough reason to keep him around. A professional writer works for the good of the song, an amateur will be attached to their ideas even if it hinders the success of the song. Amateurs tend to think that "art" is some sacred thing when professionals know that art is the product of lots of work and that creativity is always available but must be nurtured and honed through practice. Part of that practice is learning how to edit and to detach from the product enough to make those editing decisions impartially, and it sounds like Fred hasn't practiced that enough yet. Real pros are positive, but don't sugar coat. It's simply working or it's not.

True collaboration works better when there is a shared vision, IMO, and you guys need to create one of those so that everyone knows what that is. Just the process of doing that will probably shine a bright light on the situation with Fred, because the vision will have to be a product of collaboration!!

Sometimes on the path to being a professional, some amateurs will need to be left behind. It's not personal, it's just business. Let the audience decide if it's art while you're busy doing it.

Good luck!

Mazz

[jnmorrison]

Well- this is a delicate situation always!
Depending on the full details , they will kind of dictate how I'd handle it.
ie- is this a band situation? A simple collaboration project?
a writers' circle....etc.
I can tell you how it works in my band:
I am the main songwriter, guitar player and singer. I do the majority of the writing for the band.
And I usually send my relatively complete songs to the other guys to learn.
However- I'm not a drummer, or a bass player so I usually give an idea or a "feel" that I want the other guys to play- but ultimately they end up writing their own parts.
Now if it so happens that they think a lyric/vocal part or a guitar part is strange or just not working they will usually suggest alternatives and we'll hash it out together and make a decision as a band as to what's best for the song.
Now I know this is an ideal situation, as we have all been playing long enough to have dealt with all the drama and crap thousands of times before- so we're all reapectful and mature enough to never have hurt feelings.
Co-writing:
I have a co-writer I work with also for film T.V. stuff- I usually write the music and handle the production- and he does melody/lyrics. Our goals are to get songs signed so each of us are mature enough to accept any criticisms of performance/writing. Again another really ideal situation!
So I guess you have to asses whether or not "Fred's" contributions are really worth the hassle.
Sounds like Fred is a bit of a Diva, and if at all possible I wouldn't work with someone like that.
Unless that person is the main driving force behind the songs- in which case if he's not willing to relinquish a little control, it's really his solo project and you should either a) tell him you're unhappy with your role or b) just accept his genius and be thankful to be a part of it!

However something tells me that b) isn't really an option because if it were you'd probably be out on the road, or selling millions of records/placements etc right?

So somebody needs to give Fred a reality check! And if he's not mature enough to accept it- I say you're better off without him.

Now again, I don't know all the details- there may be extenuating circumstances, a relationship/s
so not working together might not be an option.

Just get real, be honest and frank and set all your goals and expectations in front of everyone else and something will work out!
Luckily- you're not in Japan - as it's usual to have to make a group of over 10 people happy during the production process!!! I remember I once worked on studio session (as a hired gun guitar player) here and we had to sit and listen to the writer, co-writer, 4 producers, the "talent", and 10 suits(record execs) argue over a single line of lyric for 2 hours in the middle of our session! Talk about wasted time and money!!!
Suffice it to say that all arguments are valid- but the only o es that should REALLY matter are the ones that serve the ultimate goals!

Bands are business agreements, there should always be clearly defined goals, roles and bonuses/penalties/responsibilites etc.
If you didn't have that agreement in place going in- you should build it now!

Ok, I've rambled enough- hopefully I helped a little and didn't contradict myself too much!
Good luck- it's always tough working with people!

Cheers,
Nick

[Len911]

If nothing synergistic is emerging from the co-writes, I don't know what the purpose of having a co-writer would be. If you can't create music better than either of you could do separately,(in all parties opinions of course), it seems futile imo. I don't necessarily think it's even a what's better or who's better, or a right or wrong issue. I suppose if he is the financeer or needed in some other way, maybe a compromise would need to be made, otherwise an amicable dissolution would probably be in order in regard to the co-write relationship.


This might not be a very good example, but let's say for instance Taylor Swift was married to Bob Dylan, and Taylor said to Bob, "Bob, dear, I would like to help you re-write some of your songs so that they would sell better and equal my record sales." I don't want to get into what all Bob might say to her, but they could still remain married, and happily, if she would write her songs and Bob could write his.

[Tree]

Thank you so much everyone for all the suggestions and thoughts! I'm glad to know I'm not being out of line by asking for revisions as a co-writer. We do have songs that we work on separately but there are some that we do benefit from working on together. And I should have mentioned he's family and a business partner so I can't just stop working with him unfortunately.

Japaneseprincess, I like your attitude! Criticism can sting my pride too but I've managed to make it's effects minimal and move on. Maz, words of wisdom as always. We need to get on the same page with our end vision, and then keep that vision fresh in all our minds. Nick, thanks for sharing your experiences, sounds like you've had your fair share of working with other people. I like the idea of bonuses/penalties/responsibilities. And Len, love the analogy! Perfect and what might have to ultimately have to happen if things don't change soon.

Thanks everyone so much! I usually try not to rant or rat out coworkers but my frustration level got the best of me today. I appreciate all your input immensely and will take it to heart.

[Kolstad]

Yeah, I think you've already had great advice!

There HAS to be a synergy effect in cowrites, otherwise they are not worth the hassle. Getting on the same page is crucial, as you then can hold each other up to do whatever gets the job done.

Pro's write songs for others, amateurs write for themselves. It's that simple.

So if you want to work from a pro attitude, and you co want's to write for himself, then you'd be better off to move on. You can't conquer other's ego for them - that's something they can only do themselves. Winning over the ego, in order to get the job done, is the essence of a professional attitude. It can be quite difficult, but it's really the core difference between winners and losers (of being succesful in business, that is) IMO.

There are such a thing as rewriting a song to death, though, so it can be a balance between interests to stay motivated throughout the process. So always finish the songs, get'em done, and out in the world. But if it's not working for you - move on to find equal minded cowriters. Luckily, there are lot's of writers with professional attitudes.

You can feel torn if it's a family member or a good friend, of course, but then you need to address the conflict between family/friends and work. That's a different issue.

[Hookjaw Brown]

My co-writer and I argue like an old married couple over words, phrases, breaks,tempo, chords and melody. The big BUT is that when we are done we like the work that we have completed. We have been working together for years (which helps) and know each others faults and also the really wonderful things that can happen after a long session of hammering out parts.

If your co-writer cannot take part in the give and take of ideas then they are a sol-writer.

le Hook

[tedsingingfox]

Hey, Tree.

Just an afterthought... would it be such a terrible idea to point "Fred" towards these forums. He doesn't have to be a TAXI member to check 'em out. But he could maybe read up and realize the amazing amount of insider info available here. From people who are having success right now, even as we share. Who have learned the hard way that there really ARE guidelines to help make the songs more sell-able in today's market. PLUS, then it wouldn't be YOU wagging a finger.

It's a tough position to be in, I know. Believe me, I know. hoh BOY, do I know (he says in his best 'Mel Brooks').

You have brains. You have heart. You'll figure this out.

Ted