Country Music Listing Confusion....?!

[sgs4u]

I'm not a fan of lawyers making decisions about music either. and, you sure didn't sound like a redneck with that last post tho. Pretty well-thought, if you ask me. steve

[jchitty]

Quote:I know, you're right. It's really not Taxi. So how about I take it out on Nashville then?Here's my beef:1. Country originated as, and still is to a point, ethnic music.2. The fact that it is, or was at one time, Southern white ethnic music makes some people in Nashville think it needs to be changed into some kind of universalist nonsense in order to make it politically correct, since "Southern" and "White" said in the same sentence implies stereotypes that are as bigoted as the images those stereotypes evoke.3. Not everyone in Nashville is like this, but a lot are. Examples of artists not buying into this b.s. are Montgomery Gentry, Toby Keith, and VanZandt. However, even these artists are compelled to do some compromise in order to get radio play. 4. "No hillbilly" means that whoever is shopping tunes is not only marketing to the "wider audience", meaning the lite rock audience, but it also means that they're bigoted against Southern people based on deeply rooted stereotypes, and this is the only type of blatant bigotry still acceptable in our society. If I put out a listing for "blues songs that don't sound n-word", how would that go over? I can't even use that word, nor do I want to, but I can use "hillbilly". I am a "hillbilly", and we're only allowed to call each other that.All types of music evolve, and I'm not against that. They incorporate new influences, experience innovations, etc. What I am against is a small group of people who are not traditionally connected with a specific genre of music invading it with their own focus-grouped, money grubbing agenda and attempting to irreversibly alter it into something unrecognizable. Especially when I'm an ignorant redneck trailer-park hillbilly and they don't put out much music that I like. Forget writing for others, I'll just go play the stuff myself for better or worse.Excellent post. Southerners are the last group you can objectify without any backlash.However, as excellent as your post is, you can lament how Nashville has changed all you want, but you're really barking up the wrong tree....it's not the music execs who may be destroying country music, it's the consuming public.Until the buying public demands more roots based country, it will be biz as usual. Also, as much as I like some of Toby Keith's or Montgomery Gentry's stuff, I see them as part of the Nashville status quo...yeah, Toby is considered an outlaw, but he still gets tons of radio play and so does Montgomery Gentry. I see them both as 'modern country,' not the traditional 'hillbilly' stuff....you'd have to go back to Alan Jackson, Vince Gill, Loretta Lynn or Merle H. for that.Actually, 'hillbilly' stuff is found more in 'alt-country' listings now.

[jimmynashville]

Steve,I appreciate your recognition that all of us Southerners are not uneducated jackasses. However, I embrace the label of hillbilly, redneck, whatever, because it is my heritage. My ancestors have lived in the Upper Cumberland region of Appalachia for over 250 years, and came to Maryland in the 1600s. The denial of the fact that Southern White people are a distinct ethnicity causes academics some very difficult problems because of their own definitions.We're talking about borders, language, and culture. Borders? Well, there was a war fought over that but we lost. Now instead of that war being defined as a war between distinct countries over the issue of self-determination it's defined in other, more disparaging ways that are not necessarily true. The victors write the history...Language? Well, even though it's being rooted out of modern country music, yes, there is a specific dialect of English spoken only in the South. It varies, regionally, but the similarities in expression and semantics are remarkable, and indigenous only to this region.Culture? Yes, there is a unique culture, that values politeness (Southern Hospitality), hard work, family, and religion. We have our own type of food, our own way of dealing with one another, socially and in business, and even our own indigenous music.At least we used to have our own indigenous music. Now all we have left in that area is Bluegrass...

[jimmynashville]

Quote:3. Not everyone in Nashville is like this, but a lot are. Examples of artists not buying into this b.s. are Montgomery Gentry, Toby Keith, and VanZandt. However, even these artists are compelled to compromise somewhat in order to get radio play.Jchitty,Actually, I acknowledged that part. Point being that they're not afraid to do some "Southern" or "Hillbilly" stuff, unlike others. Hell, Shooter Jennings is rock, big time, but he's Southern! Let it evolve, just don't let it evolve into garbage!Also, the public is demanding "more roots-based Country", just not the public being focus-grouped and marketed by the current Nashville machine. Anyone that's ever been on or heard of a midnight moonshine-out-a-mason-jar raccoon hunt under the age of 40 likes Montgomery/Gentry, just not the Montgomery/Gentry they play on the radio.There is a large market segment being totally ignored, and anything that plays to these people is considered "hillbilly" by the Franklin, TN via Hollywood intelligensia...

[sgs4u]

jimmykins, jchitty is a very fine, woman. Yer talking trash again. One artist's trash is another Music Supervisor's perfect fit. Quit complainging and get with the program. Drink the purple kool-aid, and everything will be jes fine, son.heheQuote:Jchitty,Actually,bro, I acknowledged that part. Point being that they're not afraid to do some "Southern" or "Hillbilly" stuff, unlike others. Hell, Shooter Jennings is rock, big time, but he's Southern! Let it evolve, just don't let it evolve into garbage!

[jimmynashville]

Well, Steve,This is a web forum, and I don't know the gender of others unless it's obvious, bro, so I guess my hillbilly, redneck, chauvinistic nature made me assume jchitty was male and not female due to my propensity to believe that anyone in a business environment must be a man. Sorry for calling you bro, you might be named Steve and be a chick. That's all cultural. I think out in San Fransisco there might be 2 lesbians who are married, and named Jake and Marvin. They probably moved to Franklin, Tenessee and became record company executives. I think I'm just going to go brush my tooth and go to bed...

[jchitty]

Quote:Well, Steve,This is a web forum, and I don't know the gender of others unless it's obvious, bro, so I guess my hillbilly, redneck, chauvinistic nature made me assume jchitty was male and not female due to my propensity to believe that anyone in a business environment must be a man. Sorry for calling you bro, you might be named Steve and be a chick. That's all cultural. I think out in San Fransisco there might be 2 lesbians who are married, and named Jake and Marvin. They probably moved to Franklin, Tenessee and became record company executives. I think I'm just going to go brush my tooth and go to bed...Hey, if you want to know the gender of others, most of the time, they have it printed on their profile. (some opt not to show their gender)You know, if anyone is dealing in stereotypes about Southerners, you just might be your own worst enemy here. I know you're saying most of this tongue in cheek, (to affirm your love of being Southern and loving country music, thus the hillbilly references) but you should be careful.If anyone is Southern, it's me. I've lived in Birmingham, Alabama all my life, so that's about as Southern as you can get. Southerners come in all shapes and sizes, and they aren't just people who lament the passing of traditional country music. Maybe that is why Nashville has to change a little....because the New South has changed along with it over the years. I live in a suburb, not a 'trailer' as you joked in a post before this.....once again, I know you were doing this to drive a point home, but some might not see it that way. Birmingham is a cosmopolitan city, home to an art museum, a ballet, a civil rights museum, and it's ringed all around by various affluent suburbs. There are four star restaurants here, believe it or not. Most people have heard of Frank Stitt....he's a world famous chef, and he lives here and owns "The Highlands" a culinary dream.There is even a Saks Fifth Avenue here in one of our many malls that also contain restaurants like The Cheesecake Factory and the Californina Pizza Kitchen. There are also some very liberal pockets of voters (blue staters as some people call them), and about 50 percent of the voters in Birmingham vote Democratic and not Republican.We also have a world class medical center, The University of Alabama hospital, which is in the forefront of making strides on curing cancer. And we don't make jokes about lesbians moving to Nashville to become record execs unless we're friends with 'em. (some of my best friends are...)Now, does racism still exist? Yes, but it exists on a more covert level now, but honestly, I've traveled all over New England and I've seen covert racism there as well.....it exists everywhere.Now, when you travel outside of the Birmingham city limits, you'll find 'hillbillies in trailers' but even they are part of the new growth the South has experienced over the years. Go to any small Southern town, and you'll see restaurant chains and shopping malls. And what's so interesting is that these 'hillbillies' you speak of don't care for the old style traditional music. Guess what, they like modern country....that's right. They don't want to listen to Willie Nelson. They are younger folks who want to listen to Kenny Chesney and Keith Urban. They look up to their country music heros, and they are not cowboys. And no record exec (or suit) in Nashville is forcing them to listen to that type of music. These are the folks who also pay tons of money to see artists like Faith Hill and Tim McGraw in concert.....they were one of the biggest concert draws this year.And if you want to get 'regional,' Alabamians don't see Texans as Southerners sometimes, although they like Texans. (Horace will bust me for this, hehe) But to them, Texans are Southwestern, and there is a difference....so the music that happens in Texas have always been seen by Nashvillians as 'outlaw' in some sense. As Steve pointed out, Willie Nelson was always an outsider in Nashville, although years later, he did get radio play there. But when he first started out singing and writing songs such as 'Crazy', they didn't know what to do with him. There are some exceptions to the rule of course....George Strait was embraced by Nashville as were some groups like Little Texas. Texas traditional country is a bit different from Nashville traditional country. Bob Wills and Hank Williams Jr. while similar....well, they still had different styles. Years ago, there were even distinctions, thus the phrase 'Country and Western." Now everything is just lumped into "Country."And one other thing, you say market segments are being ignored by Nashville, but that doesn't really matter. Because there are traditional country groups out there who get their music to the public despite all this. If you want to talk Appalacian based roots music, check out The Old Crow Medicine Show. They spent their formative years learning how to play what you'd call real country.....they even learned from Doc Watson. They are a bluegrass based band. Their music is fantastic, and they've sold millions of CDs so far. They are also very active on a concert circuit, and they really don't need Nashville. So if a country fan doesn't like Nashville's produce, they can go elsewhere.Nashville is just one marketing arm of the country music machine, a big arm yes, but if you truly want roots based country (or whatever you call it) then you just have to seek it out and go the the alt-country section in your local CD shop.....you make it sound like Nashville is the be all and end all. Maybe it's because you live there, but for us folks on the outside, we find a way to get the music we want.It's big tent out there, and one man's 'garbage' is another man's treasure. I like the old stuff too, and I'm guessing you and I could sit down together, and we'd have the same musical tastes, but this is a new market, and you have to write for that, like it or not. I'm not so narrow that I can't embrace some of the newer country, and I don't like imposing my musical values on others.BTW, thanks to Steve for the nice kudos.

[ddusty]

Well said, Chits.To sum it up, we feel your pain jimmy. Another way to look at this, is this is really just a music business issue, not a big plan to wipe out the "hillbillies".It happens in all forms of music. Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.Alternative rock started with Nirvana/Soundgarden and the industry turned to Candlebox/Lincoln ParkEven rap music started with Public Enemy/Run DMC, but what passes these days is more of the "B!thces and Hoes" stuff.I am not knocking the stuff that is out now, but I do not feel it is on par with the "originators". Country music is no exception. Even Americana/Roots Rock (which is the genre that i pitch to the most) is being effected. A lot of the listings now will say a la KT Tunstall. I like KT, but IMHO her album sounds poppy to me, speaking from a production point of view. I guess it's the cross over appeal that is "watering down" all genres. As an artist I don't like the trend because I feel like it takes away from the music a little bit.As a business man I like it because it's a way of reaching more people.Many of us TAXI members will probably be viewed as "sell outs" to "hard core" musicians, because we want to get paid for our work, and we are not afraid to put our music in a tv/movie/commercial, and to them maybe we are part of the problem. to me we are just playing by the rules of the game.In closing, I would like to quote a wise man (who is also a wise a$$ by his own admission ) by saying:Quote: Drink the purple kool-aid, and everything will be jes fine, son.Rob

[jchitty]

Quote:Well said, Chits.To sum it up, we feel your pain jimmy. Another way to look at this, is this is really just a music business issue, not a big plan to wipe out the "hillbillies".It happens in all forms of music. Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.Alternative rock started with Nirvana/Soundgarden and the industry turned to Candlebox/Lincoln ParkEven rap music started with Public Enemy/Run DMC, but what passes these days is more of the "B!thces and Hoes" stuff.I am not knocking the stuff that is out now, but I do not feel it is on par with the "originators". Country music is no exception. Even Americana/Roots Rock (which is the genre that i pitch to the most) is being effected. A lot of the listings now will say a la KT Tunstall. I like KT, but IMHO her album sounds poppy to me, speaking from a production point of view. I guess it's the cross over appeal that is "watering down" all genres. As an artist I don't like the trend because I feel like it takes away from the music a little bit.As a business man I like it because it's a way of reaching more people.Many of us TAXI members will probably be viewed as "sell outs" to "hard core" musicians, because we want to get paid for our work, and we are not afraid to put our music in a tv/movie/commercial, and to them maybe we are part of the problem. to me we are just playing by the rules of the game.In closing, I would like to quote a wise man (who is also a wise a$$ by his own admission ) by saying:Quote: Drink the purple kool-aid, and everything will be jes fine, son.RobThat's an excellent point too, Dusty....I was going to say this is happening in all genres as well, not just country, but I forgot to say it.....you're right on target here concerning your other points as well, music is being watered down, but then again, it's reaching more people. It's just a sign of the times we live in. It's not TAXI's fault this is happening of course, they just have to list what the client is asking for.Anyway, I promised a certain person that I'm gonna run to the post office this morning to send them a package, so I better sign off and go do so!

[avillaronga]

Quote:It happens in all forms of music. Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.Rob is absolutely correct. I don't know the first thing about country music and I really have no interest in listening to it (no offense to anyone) but I have found myself reading this thread and enjoying the discussion being generated. And it's probably because this issue resonates with everybody who has ever tried to do music in any of the so-called "traditional" genres. All along while reading this thread I was thinking that if I replaced the words "country music" with "latin music" (my area of expertise) and replaced the sub-genres with "afro-cuban" instead of "traditional country" and "latin rock" instead of "contemporary country," the discussion would have been exactly the same. I too have lamented how the music being produced in latin american countries (I'm not speaking about the latin music being produced in the US for the "hispanic" market, if you want to talk racism and stereotyping, come have a discussion with me about that little word...) is getting lost. Most of the record labels that exist in these countries (with the exception of Cuba) are now controlled by either Sony/BMG or EMI, so whatever comes out of Miami (the Latin music's Nashville if you will) rules and everyone else has to conform to that or not be released on the rosters of these record labels. Bad for artists who want to stick to very traditional types of music? Well, yes and no. Bad because it means less exposure and a harder time making a living at it but, do you need the mass market appeal in order to continue to write the music that speaks to your soul? I think not. I have taken a practical approach: I do continue to write traditional music and from time to time I find ways of using that in niche markets. I do also combine my knowledge of the traditional with more modern leaning music and I create things like that expecting an easier time using it. A sell out? Maybe. I do have some principles (I would not do Reggaeton even if my life depended on it...) but I find it easier to create the music that fulfills me as a person when I'm not worrying about who's going to buy it, that leaves me with enough time to write music that maybe is not as fulfilling to the soul but that is more marketable.Just an outsider's view of the issue.