Critique - I need a reality check, please

[jeffchurchwell]

Hi, all.I just received a return for listing S060509SS, from Screener #186. I'll post the listing below. I need a reality check, please. MY reality mostly. The screener was very complimentary of the songs, and the numerical rankings on all were 8s and 7s, which pleases me greatly. However, some of the commentary regarding where the screener felt the songs and/or recordings were weak seem (to me) to be not quite on target, or even contradictory to what I feel about them (structure, production, vocals, etc). If the songs were not up to snuff, or if I as a performer am not, that's fine, I'll accept the screener's informed opinion on that. It's the WHY the songs weren't up to snuff that I'm having trouble with. So I'd like to ask anyone who would care to to listen to the songs and then read the written critiques, and see if you'd come up with similar analyses. Thanks.You can hear the songs here: http://www.braodjam.com/jeffchurchwell . The tracks are "Infrared," "Sound Of I Love You," and "Plain Brown Wrapper." Thanks.Listing: Unique yet commerically appealing SINGER SONGWRITERS in the range of Aimee Mann, Elliott Smith, Fiona Apple, Jack Johnson, Cat Power, Michael Penn, etc. are being sought after by the Director of A&R at Major L.A. label. Extraordinary hooks, visual lyrics, and tremendous vocals is the main criteria. You have to show that you’re a major label artist in the making. Needless to say, we’ll be quite selective with this one.Infrared: Good voice. You write thoughtful, visual lyrics, however they feel just a little bit too wordy. Give your music more space. Also, work on expanding upon your musical ideas in your verse and chorus. In your verse, build to the chorus - use tension/release. And make your chorus bigger and more memorable. Double parts, add/change chords, add instrumentation & parts, add background vocals, etc etc - experiment. Listen to Tim McGraw's songs and listen to how the momentum builds within the song and also notice the texture & contour. You have a beautiful song here - keep working on this one.Sound Of I Love You: The music in this song is beautiful! Great guitar work. Focus on your vocal performance. You sound nervous. Sing this love song with passion and energy. Focus less on singing correctly and more on singing with emotion. Also, these lyrics are a bit wordy here. Consider trimming some words.Plain Brown Wrapper: Good story in the lyric. Give your chorus more emphasis within this song. Make it stand out. Make it big and memorable. You have a good hook here but you're letting it hide. Give it more contrast from your verse and bring it to life.Overall Comments: Hi Jeff, Great work. You have a wonderful talent for writing thoughtful, easy-to-relate-to stories in your lyrics. Consider trimming your lyrics a little bit so they don't feel so wordy and give your music more space to breathe. Also, in your music, add more variation and texture and give your chorus more contrast from your verse. Listen to and analyze current hit songs from popular artists and borrow some of their arrangement concepts to strengthen your own songs. You have lots of potential here. Keep writing and moving forward. All the best.The main reason you were or were not forwarded for this listing is:Return - songs need more development to be forwarded for this major label listing. Please see my notes above.---------Jeff, again. As I said, the screener was very complimentary. I probably am being overprotective of my work, because the comments were absolutely intended to be constructive and to help me grow. No argument. But were they on target?Thanks in advance.Jeff

[Casey H]

Quote:Hi, all.I just received a return for listing S060509SS, from Screener #186. I'll post the listing below. I need a reality check, please. MY reality mostly. The screener was very complimentary of the songs, and the numerical rankings on all were 8s and 7s, which pleases me greatly. However, some of the commentary regarding where the screener felt the songs and/or recordings were weak seem (to me) to be not quite on target, or even contradictory to what I feel about them (structure, production, vocals, etc). If the songs were not up to snuff, or if I as a performer am not, that's fine, I'll accept the screener's informed opinion on that. It's the WHY the songs weren't up to snuff that I'm having trouble with. So I'd like to ask anyone who would care to to listen to the songs and then read the written critiques, and see if you'd come up with similar analyses. Thanks.You can hear the songs here: http://www.braodjam.com/jeffchurchwell . The tracks are "Infrared," "Sound Of I Love You," and "Plain Brown Wrapper." Thanks.Listing: Unique yet commerically appealing SINGER SONGWRITERS in the range of Aimee Mann, Elliott Smith, Fiona Apple, Jack Johnson, Cat Power, Michael Penn, etc. are being sought after by the Director of A&R at Major L.A. label. Extraordinary hooks, visual lyrics, and tremendous vocals is the main criteria. You have to show that you’re a major label artist in the making. Needless to say, we’ll be quite selective with this one.Infrared: Good voice. You write thoughtful, visual lyrics, however they feel just a little bit too wordy. Give your music more space. Also, work on expanding upon your musical ideas in your verse and chorus. In your verse, build to the chorus - use tension/release. And make your chorus bigger and more memorable. Double parts, add/change chords, add instrumentation & parts, add background vocals, etc etc - experiment. Listen to Tim McGraw's songs and listen to how the momentum builds within the song and also notice the texture & contour. You have a beautiful song here - keep working on this one.Sound Of I Love You: The music in this song is beautiful! Great guitar work. Focus on your vocal performance. You sound nervous. Sing this love song with passion and energy. Focus less on singing correctly and more on singing with emotion. Also, these lyrics are a bit wordy here. Consider trimming some words.Plain Brown Wrapper: Good story in the lyric. Give your chorus more emphasis within this song. Make it stand out. Make it big and memorable. You have a good hook here but you're letting it hide. Give it more contrast from your verse and bring it to life.Overall Comments: Hi Jeff, Great work. You have a wonderful talent for writing thoughtful, easy-to-relate-to stories in your lyrics. Consider trimming your lyrics a little bit so they don't feel so wordy and give your music more space to breathe. Also, in your music, add more variation and texture and give your chorus more contrast from your verse. Listen to and analyze current hit songs from popular artists and borrow some of their arrangement concepts to strengthen your own songs. You have lots of potential here. Keep writing and moving forward. All the best.The main reason you were or were not forwarded for this listing is:Return - songs need more development to be forwarded for this major label listing. Please see my notes above.---------Jeff, again. As I said, the screener was very complimentary. I probably am being overprotective of my work, because the comments were absolutely intended to be constructive and to help me grow. No argument. But were they on target?Thanks in advance.JeffHi JeffI listened to InfraRed and thought it was terrific. I wasn't analyzing, just enjoying. I don't consider myself qualified to analyze or review when the work is somewhere between damn good and over the moon/sign him now. For me, it's the same as my comparing a $100 bottle of wine with a $1000 one... I probably would be past the point of discerning. (Give me a $2.50 bottle and I'll know!)One thing that did stand out was that I didn't hear it as very current sounding a la the artists mentioned. (Maybe that's why I liked it so much!)The key here is picking up on obvious phrases in the listing description:Major L.A. labelExtraordinary hooks, visual lyrics, and tremendous vocals ...show that you’re a major label artist in the makingThe bar was obviously set very high for this one. I'm sure a zillion very talented folks would not pass a first label audition.Don't sweat it. You've got tremendous talent and other breaks will come along.Best regardsCasey

[andreh]

Quote:Jeff, again. As I said, the screener was very complimentary. I probably am being overprotective of my work, because the comments were absolutely intended to be constructive and to help me grow. No argument. But were they on target?Thanks in advance.JeffJeff-I agree with much of what the screener said, though not everything:- Your lyrics and melodies are more robust than most pop artists'; they're very interesting to hear and they're fun to flow with, but they do make your songs less "catchy" because there's so much to try to remember. This approach also diminishes the contrast between the verses and choruses, as the screener mentions.- As for you not singing out, it sounds to me like it's just your style; you have a soft-to-medium bodied voice, with lots of character. You could try to get more emotion out of it, and that type of power is appealing in some contexts...but Jack Johnson (one of the reference artists) seems to get away with being mellow just fine.- There could be more dynamic & instrumental variety between different parts of your songs. I certainly hear unique aspects to each part, but the'yre defined more with your melodies and chords than with other techniques such as rhythmic and instrumental variation. Bringing in some different background singers would add a lot of life, too...with such a unique voice as your, 3 of you singing at once is recognizable and a little "fake" sounding.There are a couple things the screener didn't mention that I noticed. Back to those harmonies...they're very musical, but their complexity and frequency often detract from the lead vocal, and they're somewhat reminiscent of some 70's songs.Also, the complexity in the guitar parts, while also interesting, can be a little hard to follow and also gives your songs a feeling of times gone by.I happen to like your music a lot, Jeff, but I can see why the screener was hesitant to forward you. I think you have to choose whether you want to remain true to your own style and find a niche audience for your music, or conform to a certain extent by simplifying your music and shaping it in a more modern mold for the masses.Respectfully,Andre

[jeffchurchwell]

Casey and Andre,Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. You've both reinforced the comments from the screener, but have gone much further (in my view) towards the "why." This helps tremendously.Quote:One thing that did stand out was that I didn't hear it as very current sounding a la the artists mentioned. (Maybe that's why I liked it so much!)Casey, yup. Even though the recording is only three years old, the feel is definitely museum quality. I'm aware of that going in. I think the trick (particularly with "Infrared") is going to be finding a producer who can get me unrooted from the 70s (Andre is right on the money in his comment in this regard). I've been thinking I could get away with it by trying to pass it off as modified-updated-retro, but I'll have to find a taker for that in the industry, and that's going to be the least likely accomplishment. Snarl.Quote:Jeff-I agree with much of what the screener said, though not everything:- Your lyrics and melodies are more robust than most pop artists'; they're very interesting to hear and they're fun to flow with, but they do make your songs less "catchy" because there's so much to try to remember. This approach also diminishes the contrast between the verses and choruses, as the screener mentions.This is not the first time I've been told I'm "wordy," and I know it's a reasonable concern. Perhaps it's a change in accepted style. Three of my personal referents for lyrical style are Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, and Billy Joel (you can tell where this is going...). I'm not trying to compare myself to those guys, but still... many of their songs seem to have been written as though their royalty rates were calculated in direct proportion to their word-count. Again, maybe not today's style. I still don't know how I feel about this specific criticism; I believe I've used exactly as many words as were required (I just know Tom Hulce said something like this as Mozart in "Amadeus"... cripes, now I think I'm Mozart )... and I edit my lyrics mercilessly. Hmmph.Quote:- As for you not singing out, it sounds to me like it's just your style; you have a soft-to-medium bodied voice, with lots of character. You could try to get more emotion out of it, and that type of power is appealing in some contexts...but Jack Johnson (one of the reference artists) seems to get away with being mellow just fine.Andre, thanks. I am not a "power" vocalist. I'm me. I know I represented my emotions precisely as I intended to do, and I do not feel my performance was in any way lacking emotionally, or dynamically. And yes, many of the "current" singer/songwriters are also not "power singers." I think this was the comment that I found most off-target, both for me personally, and within the context of the listing.Quote:- There could be more dynamic & instrumental variety between different parts of your songs. I certainly hear unique aspects to each part, but the'yre defined more with your melodies and chords than with other techniques such as rhythmic and instrumental variation. Bringing in some different background singers would add a lot of life, too...with such a unique voice as your, 3 of you singing at once is recognizable and a little "fake" sounding.There are a couple things the screener didn't mention that I noticed. Back to those harmonies...they're very musical, but their complexity and frequency often detract from the lead vocal, and they're somewhat reminiscent of some 70's songs.OK, mea culpa on the "stacked" harmonies. It was both a case of too many Dan Fogelberg records (he harmonized with himself ALL the time) and too much love of CSN (so here's the complete reason for that 70s vibe). I was the only vocalist available when I made my CD (it was originally intended to be a duo, but my partner had a last minute career re-think... we sounded great together, too... pity). So I wound up doing all the vocals. After awhile, it got to be fun, and ego-inflating... I was adding harmonies because I could. If they worked, so much the better.It strikes me that many of these critique points are precisely the kinds of things a producer would be responsible for sorting out, provided he or she believed the raw material was worth the effort that would be involved. I guess my last question, then (keeping in mind that I am aware that this listing was very clear about how high the bar would be set), is this: where is the breakover point, and how can someone like me know when or whether I am approaching it?I am going to take to heart the suggestions about giving the music room to breathe, and about variation techniques within the song structure. Those are two areas I realize I've not attended to as well as I ought.Thanks, guys... not only have you helped clarify some of the screener's comments, you've forced me to get a little perspective, myself.Anyone else? This is very helpful.Jeff

[Casey H]

From Jeff's post:This is not the first time I've been told I'm "wordy," and I know it's a reasonable concern. Perhaps it's a change in accepted style. Three of my personal referents for lyrical style are Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, and Billy Joel (you can tell where this is going...). I'm not trying to compare myself to those guys, but still... many of their songs seem to have been written as though their royalty rates were calculated in direct proportion to their word-count. Again, maybe not today's style. I still don't know how I feel about this specific criticism; I believe I've used exactly as many words as were required (I just know Tom Hulce said something like this as Mozart in "Amadeus"... cripes, now I think I'm Mozart )... and I edit my lyrics mercilessly. Hmmph.This is not the first time I've been told I'm "wordy," and I know it's a reasonable concern. Perhaps it's a change in accepted style. Three of my personal referents for lyrical style are Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, and Billy Joel (you can tell where this is going...). I'm not trying to compare myself to those guys, but still... many of their songs seem to have been written as though their royalty rates were calculated in direct proportion to their word-count. Again, maybe not today's style. I still don't know how I feel about this specific criticism; I believe I've used exactly as many words as were required (I just know Tom Hulce said something like this as Mozart in "Amadeus"... cripes, now I think I'm Mozart )... and I edit my lyrics mercilessly. Hmmph.JeffOne thing I'm curious about is what exactly is your goal? Are you looking for a major label deal? Reality is folks in our age bracket with older style sounds are never going to get such a deal. This is NOT at all a reflection on your talent. It's just the way of the world. I personally love the style of the artists you mention and the wordiness doesn't bother me a bit. Imagine if someone had told Joni that "The Last Time I Saw Richard" was too wordy!! But that's irrelevant. I say don't change your style at all based on this one critique. Instead focus on:* Using your songwriting talent to create songs for other artists (You still may want to find a producer to help move the song's style into a more current era for such pitching)* Playing live gigs as I think you already do.* Sell CDs to your local following or on CDBaby* Pitching for film/TV oppsI hope I'm not off-base here.PS I love Dan Fogelberg! I dated a girl in the early 80's and we used to well... [consummate our relationship] with his music in the background. After we broke up I couldn't listen to him for years.Warm regards, Casey

[davewalton]

Hi Jeff,When I was at the 2004 Rally, Taxi had a group of some of the top national songwriters come up on stage and play their hits unplugged with just them and a guitar. Most of them looked just like you and me and Casey... you know, old guys. They were and are responsible for writing the hits for, well, the young guys (and gals).I was tremendously impressed with the fact that these unassuming-looking and well seasoned fellows have moved into a "behind the scenes" role and were actually the driving force behind a lot of the music we hear, just in their own quiet, silent way. Really, how cool would that be?I'm not a singer/songwriter, but if I were, that is where I would focus my efforts at this stage of the game. That and writing music for film and television. I'm sure you wouldn't be too disappointed to have a tracks of your music running as a background to a scene from Everwood, Gilmore Girls, or One Tree Hill.Now to the "getting modern" part. Getting from the analog 70's and 80's into the digital 2000's is a process that, well, just takes time. I came back into music at the beginning of 2004 after a long time away. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so for me the initial transformation took about a year, maybe a year and a half. I'm still making that transformation and so it's never a done deal. I have a friend that is experiencing the same problem. He's a former member of Head East (remember them?) and initially he and his current co-writer couldn't get forwarded to save their lives, all for the same reasons that you state, reasons that I experienced as well. Now they've been at it for a little less than a year, focusing on what the current artists in their genre are doing, and now their music is starting to sound less 80's and much more current. They're getting good forwards, including a forward for that crazy Captain Morgan listing. So I would suggest that you pick up a bunch of CD's of popular artists in your genre and really start listening to them. Listen for the enjoyment like in your car or whatever and try to hear the common ground between them. Also take time to sit down and "reverse engineer" their songs. Pick out the rhythms, timing, chord structures, lyric structures, etc. Pick a song you like and try to write something similar to jump start a new way of thinking.Overall the critiques have been indespensible for me. Collectively, the've helped me identify the common flaws as well as to reinforce what's good. I take them to heart as a whole, not so much individually. Like in your case, consistantly getting 7's and 8's from critique to critique for your production values means that you don't have to waste a bunch of time and money trying to get a higher quality sound. You can pretty much focus on developing your style of music.Think more long-term and enjoy the journey. I hope you stick around for the long haul. It'll be interesting to critique your songs a year from now as compared to your current set of songs. I think we'll all be amazed. Dave

[Casey H]

Quote:Hi Jeff,...I was tremendously impressed with the fact that these unassuming-looking and well seasoned fellows have moved into a "behind the scenes" role and were actually the driving force behind a lot of the music we hear, just in their own quiet, silent way. Really, how cool would that be? ...DaveYes.... What Dave said.... Casey

[jeffchurchwell]

Dave and Casey,Head East! Takes me RIGHT back.I have two small boys, ages 4 and 2. They're my first children, and I'm now 45. You know the expression "you're as young as you feel?" If I didn't have the boys, and I had just read that reference to Head East, I'd feel ancient now. But most days I feel much younger. I know it's all a matter of semantics, and I can't make anyone else see me as anything other than 45 if they don't want to, but I'm going down swinging on the question of whether I'm too old to be a pop star . However correct I know you guys are in principle, every time a singer/songwriter listing comes up that looks more than 50% applicable, I'm going for it. It's only money. And I might get lucky.However, that does leave the question of what the submitted material will sound like. And it's true, I've got to modernize. I actually have some of the tools for that at home (Garageband on my Mac and LOTS of virtual instruments) as well as my guitars, so I can experiment to my heart's content. Eventually, I may come up with something. But I also have a band I'm with now, and we bounce arrangement and writing ideas off of each other constantly, so I'm no longer a single-source provider of material. That's a big plus. I may or may not deal with re-works of past material. That's where I see some hope for film and TV placement, some of my current songs may be placeable, depending on the requirements of the placement. However, the band has taken some of my songs and re-worked the arrangements, to the songs' benefit, so they may be applicable for future listings seeking current-sounding material as well. We'll see.Casey, I am in fact doing or attempting to do all the things you mentioned, so you're completely on-target there.As far as listening to new music, I think I must have fallen into the trap of listening to new offerings by old favorites, and thinking that was the same as hearing current music. That's going to be a challenge, because as a casual radio listener, I can't honestly say I like most of what's truly current. That's my problem, I know. If I see it as a challenge, "can I make improvements on the current styles so that I find it palatable?", then it could be doable. Looking back on that last sentence, I think a lot of ego is going to be involved, and I don't usually acknowledge to myself that I have that much ego. Who am I to think I can have that kind of impact? On the other hand, the example of the guys at the Road Rally is a great one, thanks, Dave. Knowing that others in my demographic group are having that much influence on the current generation is very inspiring.Thanks again for the kibitzing, guys. I originally thought the official TAXI critiques would be the most help here, but I see that this forum is every bit as important. Thanks again.Jeff

[davewalton]

Quote:I may or may not deal with re-works of past material. All the other things you mentioned sounds to me like you're exactly on track and in the right frame of mind. For myself, I didn't try to re-work past material. I was in a certain frame of mind when I wrote that material and I think that frame of mind sticks with me as long as I continue to work on those songs. My music started to change as I attempted to work on new material in a newer frame of mind. You know the drill... trial and error, a little bit of time and patience. Pretty soon you look back and see that by comparison to the old stuff, you're headed in the right direction. DavePS - I couldn't resist posting this headline I saw about 29-year old American Idol winner Taylor HicksTaylor Hicks, Is He Too Old For American Idol?Quote:I'm going down swinging on the question of whether I'm too old to be a pop star Better start swinging away! Seriously, go for it. At $5 bucks a pop, it's pretty much the deal of the century. We kid around about this but there are tons of CD's being sold by people of all ages. You've got my support.

[nomiyah]

Quote:Thanks again for the kibitzing, guys. I originally thought the official TAXI critiques would be the most help here, but I see that this forum is every bit as important. Forum:a public meeting place for open discussiona medium of open discussion or expression of ideas