Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

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Telefunkin
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Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by Telefunkin » Sat May 20, 2017 7:28 am

Hi All,
Ever had your confidence shattered and felt like you've lost your way? Well, that's where I've reached! :lol:

I've mixed a ton of stuff in the last few years and although I don't feel expert in any way, I usually feel that I have a reasonable idea what I'm doing - or so I thought. I've had a couple of experiences lately where I've tried to create some hip hop tracks and used synth bass with some sub content, and its completely thrown me. OK, I admit that I have only 5" monitors and no sub monitor, but I thought I could manage - surely that's been done before, and I also use Beyer DT880 pro headphones with the Sonarworks reference correction plug in.

Anyway, I mix the track and it all seems OK, balanced, and a visual check on bass content (Fab Filter EQ display) indicates its not overpowering, and the drum transients are present but also not overpowering - it seems. I try to get the volume up to commercial levels, but have to be cautious to stop transients from drum machine impacts creeping through the limiter and peaking above 0dB. My rms level is then about -12dB (according to Ozone 7), which is not great but OK. There's no distortion though, so I think I'm doing OK.

Then I render the file to mp3 using Cubase's built-in codec, (although I've also tried converting using Soundforge). The resulting mp3 has distortion not only on the hi-hats/cymbals but on the bass too, as if they are interacting with each other in a nasty way. I've dropped the bass levels and tamed the hats/cymbals but the same effect is still present. This has not happened to me before on mixes with 'normal' bass content, and I've tried using a high-pass filter on the bass set at 35Hz to roll off the sub content, but its not really helped. So I'm confused. Is it Cubase, the bass, the hats, the mp3 converter, my monitoring, my metering, my ears, my sanity? :lol: How do the hip hop guys get a commercial level track without these issues, especially with sub-bass frequencies present and mp3 conversion? All advice very much appreciated and awaited eagerly (as long as you don't tell me to buy a sub monitor, or to step away from the hip hop ;) ).
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by brrrse » Sat May 20, 2017 8:08 am

I have absolutely no answers for you, but wanted to thank you for posting this!! I'm looking forward to following this and seeing what gets figured out!
Tasha Parker Gibbs - singer/songwriter/composer
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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by cassmcentee » Sat May 20, 2017 8:11 am

I'm looking forward to hearing some good advice as well!
So far, for me, I've been leaning towards making sure the monitors can handle the kick and bass at full volume (I do use a sub)
That includes a High Pass Filter over the Low End till the monitors are happy with what they are getting hit with!
and then everything else sits well below that. So where in one of my acoustic tracks the drums and instrument faders will be at similar positions,
...but with my latest hip hop attempts the instrument faders are less by at least half compared to the kick

I was just thinking of this--- When the speakers are pushing the big LOW END it makes it harder for the HIGH END to get pushed as it would be for a Singer/Writer song.
To Create the big Low End our monitor cones have to be jumping, It's hard to yell and whisper at the same time
I just experimented with Heavy High Passes over the low end of the instruments and gave heavy HighZ boosts to the instruments.
Those boosts would be way too much in another genre, but it allowed the speakers, which are jumping/pulsing, to still produce a pleasing High End.
It also allowed for the instrument volumes to remain relatively low yet still cut through with definition.
Now it's starting to make sense how the guys that are great at this get so much open space.
I would like to know how they deal with the reverb, if any at all! :D

(Edit) P.S. A Taxi Friendly Library had a call out for some Latin Hip Hop, I started two tracks and then threw up my hands as I felt I wasn't going anywhere with the tunes.
I don't listen to Hip Hop so that is a big hurdle to jump over. But for the sake of the discussion, here is a clip of what I was working on before I surrendered:
https://soundcloud.com/robert-cass-mcen ... re-de-rojo
I'll remove the tune from Soundcloud in a couple of days since it is rather embarrassing :oops: !
Last edited by cassmcentee on Sat May 20, 2017 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by Telefunkin » Sat May 20, 2017 10:57 am

You're welcome Tasha :) I'm baring my soul on this one, but I figured I'm amongst friends.

Hi Cass, You've got a great kick sound and at least all of the beat hangs together in the mix.
Last edited by Telefunkin on Sat May 20, 2017 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by waveheavy » Sat May 20, 2017 11:27 am

Here's an example of a pretty heavy kick and low bass in the genre. It's the Waves L3 limiter that's helping keep it under control. But there's also EQing.

Don't have your volume up too high please; I did all this using my headphones:

https://soundcloud.com/waveheavy/hiphoptest2/s-wK05H

Telefunkin, are you wanting more than that?

If so, then EQ and limiting is still going to be the same kind of process on the low end. In my example there's a low end roll off of the kick at 30Hz and a roll off of the bass at 40Hz. I have a narrow dip in the bass at 55Hz where the kick has a strong narrow boost at 55Hz (its sweet spot). I have another strong boost around 4kHz for the kick beater. I have the kick triggering a sidechained compressor on the bass. Only thing lacking with the bass style is it needs some kind of saw synth added or distortion effect, but that's going to be higher frequency stuff.

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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by Telefunkin » Sat May 20, 2017 11:50 am

Dave, that sounds fine to me, and I really appreciate the reply. Are you saying I simply need to use a Waves L3 And possibly HP filtering to make it all work and not distort when converting to mp3? I believe I've effectively been doing that, although using other tools. Yet whilst my metering plus visible and audible indications suggest I've not been over-cooking it, the distortion in my mp3 tells me otherwise. Honestly, I still don't know what I've got wrong. It sounds easy from your demo and from what you say, and that's what I expect, but there's something about what I'm doing that the conversion does not like and I'm still not sure what it is. Have I missed your point?
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by cassmcentee » Sat May 20, 2017 12:23 pm

Graham, can you post the MP3 that's distorted?
Might give some better clues as to what's happening
Robert "Cass" McEntee
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https://soundcloud.com/robert-cass-mcentee
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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by Telefunkin » Sat May 20, 2017 5:44 pm

OK, I've got things slightly better by changing the bass sound and toning down the hi-hats. I've messed around so much with just about every possible variation that I've completely lost perspective though, so please don't judge the mix :lol: - On listening to it a while ago it was obvious that the drum machine dynamics are way to lively now, so it could do with those easing back too. Although the distortion is now reduced the mix still sounds a bit messy, as if things are on the edge of breaking up. I'm certainly not proud of the track, but its for the sake of learning. If anyone cares to listen, its called 'But Trouble' and is on my page near the top at:
http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.php?userid=59282

[I've also realised that the limiters in Ozone 7 are not exactly 'brickwalls', because I can easily get transients to peak above 0dB if I push too hard. I've found this with some other limiters, including the latest Barricade, although their old JB 32-bit version (that I can no longer use in Cubase 9 :roll: ) was great at doing a really good of blocking almost anything you could throw at it. I've not tried Waves L3 though - I didn't expect to need it after buying Ozone 7.]

Also, if I compare my track with yours Dave (according to the link you sent) mine is nowhere near as loud or bassy/powerful. I know sound choice has a lot to do with that but I'd be happy get the result you got. If I were to mix exactly those two stems then convert to mp3 would I get the same track power and clarity? You'd hope so, but I'm beginning to wonder.
Last edited by Telefunkin on Sun May 21, 2017 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by lesmac » Sat May 20, 2017 6:46 pm

Hi Graham,
Some good points already made by "folks in the know".
I'll join the discussion , not saying I have the answer for you but will throw in a few things I've picked up lately.

I think your track sounds pretty good musically and mix wise except for your bass problem. The low end bass rattled things in my studio. Admittedly I haven't been listening to real bass heavy tracks or I would probably have removed the culprits but it really got the sub "working".

That tip about setting the kick and bass is a good one and Gram from "the recording revolution.com" has a you tube vid on that. {Using RMS level}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECRx4WF3pcc

Warren Huart from "produce like a pro" has some tips on mixing bass, one where he duplicates the bass track and puts a high pass filter on one and a low pass on the other. He compresses the low passed track to control it and on the high passed track accentuates the harmonics so it translates over smaller speakers.

I use "Maxxbass by Waves to bring out bass harmonics and it works well.

Another tip I've seen on You tube is where the presenter imports reference tracks in the desired genre and sweeps a filter right down to compare the low end to his track. Maybe do that and use your visual tools to check.

None of the points above were specifically hip hop related but the principal should be the same. Not saying the above points are even relevant here but a good tip is worth sharing anyway.

Others with more knowledge on mp3 conversion may provide more but I'm guessing there is too much content down low for the conversion to handle. I'm prepared to be "set straight" here. :oops: :D Sorta along the lines of what Cass was saying.

I'd use RMS metering on the master bus as well as other buses and individual tracks.

Looking forward to see how this one pans out. {pun intended :oops: :P}

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Re: Cry For Help on Mixing Hip Hop

Post by waveheavy » Sat May 20, 2017 7:52 pm

I was wondering if you were using some kind of limiter on your Master bus and also were watching a spectral analyzer of the bottom end.

If your analyzers are correct and not revealing overs on the peak and loudness (RMS) meters, and there's no 'intersample peaks', then the bounce should be no problem. Ozone is one of the few tools that picks up intersample peaks, a condition that on normal peak & RMS meters won't show distortion, yet the intersample peak can still contain distortion.

http://www.musictech.net/2012/09/10mm-n ... ple-peaks/




Telefunkin wrote:Dave, that sounds fine to me, and I really appreciate the reply. Are you saying I simply need to use a Waves L3 And possibly HP filtering to make it all work and not distort when converting to mp3? I believe I've effectively been doing that, although using other tools. Yet whilst my metering plus visible and audible indications suggest I've not been over-cooking it, the distortion in my mp3 tells me otherwise. Honestly, I still don't know what I've got wrong. It sounds easy from your demo and from what you say, and that's what I expect, but there's something about what I'm doing that the conversion does not like and I'm still not sure what it is. Have I missed your point?

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