dBvu, dBfs, etc...

[ComposerLDG]

Ok, so lately I've been focusing on upping my production skills, since there is so much well-produced stuff out there to compete with. I sent in a track to Taxi for a custom critique focusing on overall mix, eq, and production overall. The screener gave some very encouraging observations, and also offered some suggestions. One thing he/she said is that overall the mix seemed slightly hot. On listening closely to it, I agree. I don't hear distorting, but it definitely sounds like it's pushed pretty hard.

Typically when I track, I gain stage the individual tracks to -18 dbFS so there's lots of room. In the final mix, I'm using a limiter to raise the overall volume to -.2. I've had the Waves VU meter plugin around, but never thought of using it. I figured after those comments, I would give it a try by throwing it on my submix bus to see what it showed, since VU tends to "hear" much like the ear does. After calibrating it so that 0 was -18 dbFS, I started playing the mix to find that it's totally in the red at +3 and showing clipping at times, even though the limiter is definitely stopping it at -.2 ( have it set to true peak detection).

So right now my head's spinning because I've been listening to the track for a while. Before I do any more work on the track, does anyone have any input on what I've said above? My my calibration is off? Or is this just a classic case of pushing a limiter too hard?

Thanks all,

-Loren

[ResonantTone]

Hey Loren!

I’m very interested to hear people weigh in on this. I’ve been wondering a lot of the same.

One of the things that really helped me (and I’m still learning and experimenting with) is the idea of a “crest factor”. The general idea is that through compression and limiting, you achieve a certain amount of thickness in your actual wave file, and the comparison between this fatness and the transient peaks is referred to as a crest factor. A track that is too dynamic with huge peaks will sound empty, while a track that’s too fat and little to no peaks has no dynamic impact.

I will say that the genre has a huge impact on all this, since modern EDM should be mixed very different than say a film score.

I’m pretty sure this didn’t actually answer your direct questions, but I figured I’d share anyway. like I said, I’m looking forward to hearing other people’s experience on this, and specifically how it relates to what a music supervisor is wanting to hear.

Thanks!
Andrew

[ComposerLDG]

Thanks, Andrew! Yes, absolutely there will be a difference depending on genre. The track I sent in for a critique is an orchestral tension/action/drama track, which is pretty lively with risers, percussion, soaring strings, etc. So there needs to be dynamics, swells, builds, etc. The trick is juggling all of that while maintaining a good overall volume level without totally ruining it by crushing it!

One thing that I found is that I like the Waves L2 Maximizer better than the limiter that comes with Logic. More control and just seems to do a much cleaner job.

Anyway, thanks for replying! I'm looking forward to hear what some of the more experienced Taxi people say. The screener's comments are a huge help and are what started this quest to really raise my production bar.

[ttully]

Hi Loren,

On all my orchestral tracks I use the SSL G-Buss compressor
And the Waves L2 or L3. With an out ceiling of -.3

Instead of L2 or L3, sometimes I use the AVID PRO Limiter.

Then I often use 2 products by a company 'Mastering the Mix' called 'Levels' and "Reference'.
They will tell everything you need to know!!!

I usually make my orchestral action stuff pretty hot.... but no one has ever said they were too hot.....yet!


My 7 cents worth,
Tim

[waveheavy]

I use the RMS meter as a guide. Usually my finished mixes are around -14 to -12 dbRMS. That's usually leaves enough headroom for final mastering. I then try to keep the highest dynamic of the track around -10 dbRMS in final. I don't do EDM or Hip Hop, so I rarely need to go any higher than that.

With the Waves L2 meter, there's a certain way to use them to know when it's adding distortion. First, with both controls at the top, you pull both controls down together at the same time with the center button, until you start seeing red in the Atten meter. Then you note the Threshold amount. Then you pull the Output Ceiling back up to around -0.1 dbFS (I use -0.3 dbFS most of the time). That's the max limiter Threshold level for that track before adding distortion.

[ResonantTone]

Tim,

I’ve been going back and forth on purchasing the Reference plugin for a while.. think I’ll pull the trigger on it. I keep hearing great things from those that use it.

Andrew

[ComposerLDG]

Hi Loren,

On all my orchestral tracks I use the SSL G-Buss compressor
And the Waves L2 or L3. With an out ceiling of -.3

Instead of L2 or L3, sometimes I use the AVID PRO Limiter.

Then I often use 2 products by a company 'Mastering the Mix' called 'Levels' and "Reference'.
They will tell everything you need to know!!!

I usually make my orchestral action stuff pretty hot.... but no one has ever said they were too hot.....yet!


My 7 cents worth,
Tim

Thanks for the info, Tim. I really like Waves L2. Much more transparent than Logic's stock limiter. I hear a world of difference when I compare the two.

What threw me was when I inserted the VU meter and it started pegging and clipping, even though my limit ceiling was -.2 dbFS

[ttully]

Hey Loren,

I would think the VU meters were wrong...
I know the L2 will not let the signal get past what put you in for the out ceiling .... -.2


My -.2 cents,
Tim

[Len911]

if you put aside artistic license and corrective issues aside for a moment, the compressor/limiter basic function is to control the peaks so they don't distort the medium they are recorded onto. A signal that doesn't meet the threshold is unaffected
or unity gain. If you only use enough gain reduction in the peaks to prevent distortion, you have preserved the dynamics the best you can, if however you push the peaks down further, you are lowering the dynamic, or the difference between soft and loud elements. So yes, you are able to increase gain, but how should you judge how much? Imo, by how loud the softest elements are. When the softest or lowest dynamic is too loud, that is what really determines the overall level being too loud.

[mojobone]

Hey Loren!

I’m very interested to hear people weigh in on this. I’ve been wondering a lot of the same.

One of the things that really helped me (and I’m still learning and experimenting with) is the idea of a “crest factor”. The general idea is that through compression and limiting, you achieve a certain amount of thickness in your actual wave file, and the comparison between this fatness and the transient peaks is referred to as a crest factor. A track that is too dynamic with huge peaks will sound empty, while a track that’s too fat and little to no peaks has no dynamic impact.

I will say that the genre has a huge impact on all this, since modern EDM should be mixed very different than say a film score.

I’m pretty sure this didn’t actually answer your direct questions, but I figured I’d share anyway. like I said, I’m looking forward to hearing other people’s experience on this, and specifically how it relates to what a music supervisor is wanting to hear.

Thanks!
Andrew

This is kinda close, let me nudge it across the goal line for you.


Crest Factor is the difference between Peaks and RMS average. Ideally, you want a meter that shows both, and even better, if you can get a realtime readout of crest factor or a little bar graph, like you get for gain reduction on your compressors.

Ideally, your crest factor should be consistent with other tracks in the same genre, that have a similar feel and tempo.