Does anyone else find it difficult to write in even numbers?

[DooWahDiddy]

This is mostly out of curiosity, as I don't think it's hurt my songwriting (although who knows, maybe it has), but I really can't write in 4-bar phrases, or even numbers at all. My verses usually have 7 or 9 bars, and my choruses will have 15 or something like that. Everyone who listens to my music says it sounds natural and they don't even notice it, but I can't help but wonder if I "should" be striving to keep it an even number. Of course I use the term "should" loosely because art is art, but there IS a reason 4/4 is the most common time signature, so maybe there's something to it.

Of course some of the most famous songs in the world don't have even-numbered phrases; "Yesterday" being a good example (7 bars). Elton John's "Your Song" is also really wonky, with the verse and chorus being 8 and A HALF bars each (with a 2/4 bar thrown in there for good measure, snerk). So obviously there are no hard and fast rules; just wondering what other songwriters thought about it!

[Len911]

You didn't say what time signature you were using.
In general I believe the number of bars coincides with the cadence. It's possible if you used a different time signature, your bars might actually turn into four bar phrases.

Here's what I found on the Elton John song:"The time signature of the song can be a little confusing to figure out. The song definitely has an 8th note pulse to it, which leads one to believe that a 4/8 or 8/8 time signature is called for. That really doesn’t work though with the relaxed ballad feel of the song, so you end up going back to the standard 4/4 timing."
It doesn't work why? because the tempo might seem too slow?

The truth is that it doesn't matter for someone who has heard the song, liked it, and bought the sheet music to play it. If you asked someone to play it that had never heard it, you might get a different interpretation than what was intended. It would be more important in the age before recordings to get it as close to being "correct" as it would be now, imo!

[Kolstad]

I think even vs uneven in songwriting theory is coupled with resolved and unresolved. Meaning an even bar section supports a lyric that resolves (emotionally or story wise), and an uneven bar section supports unresolved lyrics. Don't remember who suggested it, maybe Sheila Davies or Pat Pattison.

But follows you write uneven sections only, and have lyrics that resolves, it could affect prosody (connection between music and lyrics) in some instances. In other cases it might create contrast. So, good AND bad

[DooWahDiddy]

Sorry, I meant when I was writing in 4/4! I like to think my lyrics resolve, and writing in even numbers doesn't occur to me while I'm writing; it's only after I've written something that I go back and count them, and it's always an odd number, haha! I don't know why, but there you have it...

[Len911]

Sorry, I meant when I was writing in 4/4! I like to think my lyrics resolve, and writing in even numbers doesn't occur to me while I'm writing; it's only after I've written something that I go back and count them, and it's always an odd number, haha! I don't know why, but there you have it...

http://www.sonicvisualiser.org/

This is free. Also download the vamp plugins.

There are numerous plugins to analyze your music for you to help you find out why. Just pick one that will give you the time signature. I'd be surprised if 4/4 was the analysis, given the odd bar count.

[DooWahDiddy]

Sorry, I think there's a miscommunication somewhere. I know what time signature it's in, and it's definitely 4/4. I make my living as a Broadway pianist, haha; I better know!

What I'm saying is that when I write, I tend to write songs that have an odd number of measure numbers, not beats. Like, for example, my new song "Perfect With You", which you can hear on my TAXI page if you'd like to hear what I'm talking about, has 16 measures in the verse, which is normal, but when I wrote the chorus I wrote it in 18 measures, which is not a multiple of 4. Like I said, not the end of the world, and still an even number, but it doesn't follow the normal "group of 4" precedent set in so many songs. I have another song where the chorus is 7 measures, which sounds right to me, but I'm just noting it's something different than the norm.

Do you know what I mean? The number of measures doesn't affect the time signature; "Perfect With You" is just a straight-ahead rock tune that is unquestionably in 4/4 (or cut time, depending on how you're feeling the beat, but that doesn't make a difference). It's just that I came up with a chorus melody that required two more measures than the standard 16 that's normally used in pop music. When I said "I don't know why", I meant I don't know why my brain works that way, haha...

[Russell Landwehr]

Heya Brandon. (good thing I clicked into your page AGAIN or else I would have called you Mr. DooWah... dooh!) ... where's the razz icon??? there it is

OK, here's my take on it... I depends on the genre.

I just took a little stroll through the songs you have on your TAXI page. In YOUR genre, odd measure thingies are perfect. The MAIN thing is making sure it sounds RIGHT. You don't want the listener to go... "WHAT? what happened there?" It's gotta flow. From everything I'm hearing there on your page, your "odd measures" flow in the right manner.

This kind of thing happens a lot in many genres. Pop and Country even. I've mapped out some songs in those contemporary genres and found that there can be some tricky little odd-measure stuff that you don't even notice is there! THAT'S because it flows perfectly and MAKES SENSE!

Some genres don't do well with odd measures. I "would" put EDM up there as one of them... except I've actually succesfully shopped an EDM song with a few odd measures... HUH! go figure.

Again... if it feels right and isn't going to freak out the listener... go for it!

Regards
Russell Landwehr

[DooWahDiddy]

Well said! Yes, interesting that it really depends on the genre of music; you're right, I don't think it would work as well in a hip-hop or dance situation. Just kind of funny that when I try to force myself to write in multiples of 4, it sounds... well, forced. So I decided long ago to just let whatever comes out come out, and so far people have said it sounds natural, so I'm sticking with it!

And you can call me Mr. Diddy.

[mikemichnya]

Hey Brandon,

I agree with Russell. If it feels right, don't worry about the even/odd thing. It might make it a bit tricky for anyone who has to decipher it later, or if you have to teach it to a band, but that's what sheet music is for. I grew up listening to 60's/70's folk and rock, and there were plenty of songs that had odd numbers of measures...and odd time signatures thrown in.

Kolstadt was referencing Pat Pattison. He talks about odd numbers of lines of lyrics as being unbalanced, so there might be something to it. Of course, how it's written out on the page doesn't matter anywhere near as much as how the listener hears it.

[joyfrost]

I think even vs uneven in songwriting theory is coupled with resolved and unresolved. Meaning an even bar section supports a lyric that resolves (emotionally or story wise), and an uneven bar section supports unresolved lyrics. Don't remember who suggested it, maybe Sheila Davies or Pat Pattison.

But follows you write uneven sections only, and have lyrics that resolves, it could affect prosody (connection between music and lyrics) in some instances. In other cases it might create contrast. So, good AND bad

It was Pat Pattison! It ties into his Prosidy method. Stable vs unstable song structures to correspond to stable or unstable emotional messages of songs Seriously genius