Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
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- Rob Lorenzo
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Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
One question I've been meaning to ask,
What's your advice on recording using the mixers that are loaded in Addictive Drums and BFD, for example. They allow you to output from the embedded mixer to individual tracks on the DAW and always wondered what the pros/cons of this are.
Do people use them at all and prefer to output the drums directly to the DAW then compress/EQ at the mixing stage or do folk find the sound they want using the VI's mixer and FX to record and tweak once it comes to mixing.
Appreciate your thoughts!
What's your advice on recording using the mixers that are loaded in Addictive Drums and BFD, for example. They allow you to output from the embedded mixer to individual tracks on the DAW and always wondered what the pros/cons of this are.
Do people use them at all and prefer to output the drums directly to the DAW then compress/EQ at the mixing stage or do folk find the sound they want using the VI's mixer and FX to record and tweak once it comes to mixing.
Appreciate your thoughts!
- Fullertime
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
Hey Rob, Great topic!
I actually just finished posting a tutorial on MOTUnation about routing BFD2.0 to Digital Performer for that very reason!
If you're like me, you do a LOT of heavy Drum Programming and it's my OPINION that the drum VI mixing consoles are not appropriate for broadcast quality mixes mainly due to the fact that they usually eat your RAM for lunch! Precious RAM that could be used for a nice Verb or Compression. Especially, BFD2.0, I LOVE the plug-in, but the mixer section is kind of lame(compared to DP).
Usually what I do is this...
After I am done with programming, I bounce the entire kit to a "scratch track audio file" into my DAW so I can "disable" the VI while I'm tracking the other instruments and vocals. After I complete the tracking of everything else, I go back and re-enable BFD2.0 and make any necessary programming tweaks(hits, accents, dynamics, midi velocities, etc).
Once I have the programmed drums "EXACTLY" where I want them, I route the kit to my DAW and dump them directly as audio(no f/x) as the following tracks:
Kick drum(mono),
Snare drum(mono),
Hi Hat(mono),
Toms(stereo),
Cymbals(stereo),
Overheads(stereo) and
Room Mics(stereo)
This way I can free up about 1 gig or 2 of Valuable RAM, use my DAW automation and plug-ins, and do Cut & Paste editing on the fly if I need to (although I include Midi data when cutting & pasting in case I need to re-render in the future)
But the main reason is that I can use my Waves compression and MOTU ProVerb on the individual kit pieces.
*Also, if I have a 3rd Party Engineer mixing for me, they will be able to mix the drums in a traditional manner.
---
Hope all that makes since. I'm very passionate about my drum tracks so I could talk about this stuff all day long!
PM me if you want to pick my brain further. For the record I'm using BFD 2.0 with Digital Performer 7.12
What are you using?
Hope this helps
-Fuller
I actually just finished posting a tutorial on MOTUnation about routing BFD2.0 to Digital Performer for that very reason!
If you're like me, you do a LOT of heavy Drum Programming and it's my OPINION that the drum VI mixing consoles are not appropriate for broadcast quality mixes mainly due to the fact that they usually eat your RAM for lunch! Precious RAM that could be used for a nice Verb or Compression. Especially, BFD2.0, I LOVE the plug-in, but the mixer section is kind of lame(compared to DP).
Usually what I do is this...
After I am done with programming, I bounce the entire kit to a "scratch track audio file" into my DAW so I can "disable" the VI while I'm tracking the other instruments and vocals. After I complete the tracking of everything else, I go back and re-enable BFD2.0 and make any necessary programming tweaks(hits, accents, dynamics, midi velocities, etc).
Once I have the programmed drums "EXACTLY" where I want them, I route the kit to my DAW and dump them directly as audio(no f/x) as the following tracks:
Kick drum(mono),
Snare drum(mono),
Hi Hat(mono),
Toms(stereo),
Cymbals(stereo),
Overheads(stereo) and
Room Mics(stereo)
This way I can free up about 1 gig or 2 of Valuable RAM, use my DAW automation and plug-ins, and do Cut & Paste editing on the fly if I need to (although I include Midi data when cutting & pasting in case I need to re-render in the future)
But the main reason is that I can use my Waves compression and MOTU ProVerb on the individual kit pieces.
*Also, if I have a 3rd Party Engineer mixing for me, they will be able to mix the drums in a traditional manner.
---
Hope all that makes since. I'm very passionate about my drum tracks so I could talk about this stuff all day long!
PM me if you want to pick my brain further. For the record I'm using BFD 2.0 with Digital Performer 7.12
What are you using?
Hope this helps
-Fuller
"Vision will get you where you want to go, values will determine if you like yourself when you get there!"
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- Rob Lorenzo
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
What an insightful reply, thanks Fuller!
Some great ideas. I like the ideas of a good initial scratch (audio) track to work with saving resources then dry tracks for the engineer to mix and use with 'outboard' or DAW plug-ins and inserts - allows lots of options and alternatives.
I could talk about this stuff all day too.
At present I'm simply using the new BFD Eco in Cubase, occasionally Addictive Drums having just moved from drum machines and full-time with real drummers.
Opening my own tin of worms here: regarding MIDI data - I notice some folks have an individual track for each individual trigger e.g. a Snare MIDI track, Kick Drum MIDI track, etc. It's more tracks yet I can see some sense in this. Do you use this approach?
Some great ideas. I like the ideas of a good initial scratch (audio) track to work with saving resources then dry tracks for the engineer to mix and use with 'outboard' or DAW plug-ins and inserts - allows lots of options and alternatives.
I could talk about this stuff all day too.
At present I'm simply using the new BFD Eco in Cubase, occasionally Addictive Drums having just moved from drum machines and full-time with real drummers.
Opening my own tin of worms here: regarding MIDI data - I notice some folks have an individual track for each individual trigger e.g. a Snare MIDI track, Kick Drum MIDI track, etc. It's more tracks yet I can see some sense in this. Do you use this approach?
- Fullertime
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
As far as individual midi tracks it does have many advantages and it doesn't use any additional CPU.
One thing I love about DP (not sure in Cubase), is that you can do a "Split Midi Data" function that allows you to assign specific midi notes to a new track and separate it from the track that it is currently in.
Example: you can select a midi track and send all the "C1" keys(which are usually kick) to a new track and call it Kick Drum.
I usually program the Kick & snare on the same midi track and then separate them.
One reason I like separating the midi parts is that it allows me to quantize each part separately. I always want my kicks & snares right near the beat while I may want my hi-hat groove slightly off... Also, you may want to use the kick part to trigger something else to like maybe a side chain compression or synth.
Fuller
One thing I love about DP (not sure in Cubase), is that you can do a "Split Midi Data" function that allows you to assign specific midi notes to a new track and separate it from the track that it is currently in.
Example: you can select a midi track and send all the "C1" keys(which are usually kick) to a new track and call it Kick Drum.
I usually program the Kick & snare on the same midi track and then separate them.
One reason I like separating the midi parts is that it allows me to quantize each part separately. I always want my kicks & snares right near the beat while I may want my hi-hat groove slightly off... Also, you may want to use the kick part to trigger something else to like maybe a side chain compression or synth.
Fuller
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
I like to keep the MIDI for the entire kit together so I can easily see the interplay between the triggers. Once I've got the performance all customized the way I want, I then do what Fuller does, taking the dry audio of each to a separate track.Rob Lorenzo wrote:regarding MIDI data - I notice some folks have an individual track for each individual trigger e.g. a Snare MIDI track, Kick Drum MIDI track, etc. It's more tracks yet I can see some sense in this. Do you use this approach?
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- mojobone
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
I don't bother with splitting parts out to tracks from Addictive; the onboard controls are enough to tweak the sounds over as broad range, and I can control and automate almost anything with either a knob or a fader on my control surface using the nifty learn function and having fewer enabled tracks is actually more CPU efficient. As far as level automation's concerned, if I want it louder, I'll hit the triggers harder, and if I made a mistake, it's easier (and sounds more authentic) to edit MIDI velocity data. Addictive pretty much has my needs covered for drum tweaking, but I'll occasionally split out parts if I want to use a particular bus compressor or convolution reverb. (it's nice to have a few upscale virtual drum rooms available, sometimes) The downside is it can be a little harder to see the automation curves, cuz they're all on one (MIDI) track, even though they're different colors. Of course there's an option to view them one at a time, but I don't think I can select just the snare and overhead automation curves, for instance.
- Fullertime
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
Yes, in theory if all tracks are equal... 5 audio tracks take less CPU than 10 audio tracks.mojobone wrote:... having fewer enabled tracks is actually more CPU efficient. ....
But when talking about "Virtual Instruments" the VI's chew up way more than a single audio track.
For instance(no pun intended), BFD2.0 chews up about 1.2 Gigs of RAM in DP due to the large sample sizes and detail.. 6 Audio tracks enabled chew up way less. Once I bounce BFD down to 4-7 audio tracks, I free up most of that valuable RAM for mixing.
Fuller
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- mojobone
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
Yeh, CPU efficient's not the same as RAM efficient; AD's pretty good at both, same goes for Kontakt.
- Rob Lorenzo
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Re: Drum VI mixer vs. DAW mixer
Whilst testing your approach, Fuller, with using a scratch drum tracks, etc. found that once the BFD FX were switched off (via the FX power off function) the disk bandwidth dropped dramatically.Fullertime wrote:mojobone wrote: For instance(no pun intended), BFD2.0 chews up about 1.2 Gigs of RAM in DP due to the large sample sizes and detail.. 6 Audio tracks enabled chew up way less. Once I bounce BFD down to 4-7 audio tracks, I free up most of that valuable RAM for mixing.
Fuller
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