EZDrummer problem: "Drummer" vs. "Audience" perspective

[Brock1]

Hey EZDrummer users,

EZ offers you the ability to switch from "drummer perspective" to "audience perspective".

At first I figured this is a no-brainer. You choose "audience perspective"; ie hi-hat on the right because that's how an audience would perceive the location of the various instruments in the kit. There's even a convenient little button to press that does the work for you.

There's just one problem:

I noticed right away that the minute I switched to audience perspective, I now have a "ghost" of the hi-hat on the left from the overheads/room mics.


Uhhhhh...how the heck are you supposed to get around this? I don't want to turn off mic bleed because that will make the kit sound less real. I want to use audience perspective, but I almost feel like I can't since I get that weird "stereo" sound to the hat when I do.

As of right now, I'm just keeping drummer perspective since that puts the hat on the left and it coincides with what the overheads are hearing.

Still, I know libraries can be uber picky about realism. I don't want to be rejected because my drums are panned "incorrectly".

Thoughts?

Mike
www.mikewestbrock.com

[Russell Landwehr]

I suppose there must be a way to flip the overhead/room mics but I don't use EZDrummer... however, I do use a free VST Stereo Tool that is WAY awesome (and I use it ALOT for various purposes) It is by Flux http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewares/stereotool

You can put this in a track's inserts, pan the left full right and the right full left and then.... There ya go.

Russell

[Brock1]

Hey Russell,

You can flip the Overhead mics, but they are in stereo already, so I don't know that it makes a difference. When you hit the "switch" button, everything gets flipped, not just the "mono" instruments...didn't seem to make a difference. But I will try manually (one by one) flipping the panning for the stereo tracks and see if that works. Maybe it just got confused. I've noticed that it sometimes doesn't respond to "all" commands.

If not, maybe I'll try that plug-in you referenced.

Thanks for the tip!

Mike

[Len911]

I would think you could turn down the overhead mics. The 'real' sounding probably applies more to the sound of the instrument and less to the 'reverb'. Where you place the room mics would also change perspective. Whether it's real ambience or a reverb, the stereo or stereo separation from both channels will be affected. Unless everything was close mic'ed and dry, unrealistic?, nothing is going to be perfect and ghost free anyway.

[andygabrys]

hey Mike,

2 possibles - first that you installation is screwed up - which would be a drag but would just require you to re-install.

2nd: that what you are hearing is usual and natural.

I have EZ drummer with a number of kits. here is a screenshot of the indie folk mixer :



I assume you are flipping the perspective from "audience" to "drummer" using the knob with arrows beside the word "pan" - top left side. "audience" and "drummer" are all relative anyways - what happens when Phil Collins plays drums (Left handed drummer you know, kit set up reversed) - I don't think a screener cares whether or not the drums sound like audience or drummer perspective. That has always been the choice of the mixer.

anyways - works flawlessly here.

to check, it you go to the default mixer preset for whatever kit you are using.

audition a groove that has hi-hat playing.

solo the Overhead channel.

listen through the groove with the hi-hat solo'ed as well, then "un-solo" and back and forth. You should hear the image of the hi-hat in the exact same part of the stereo spectrum in both cases.

then flip the whole mixer.

do the same thing. you should hear it in the same location on the other side of the stereo field.

In the overheads, there is going to be a slight smear, and you won't hear the hi-hat only in one side or the other. You will hear more of it on one side, and less on the other, just like a real drum recording.

Now do the same thing with the Ambience channel - turn off the Overheads and leave the ambience solo'ed.

listen through the groove with the hi-hat solo'ed as well, then "un-solo" and back and forth. You should hear the image of the hi-hat in the exact same part of the stereo spectrum in both cases.

Since the ambience mics are much further away from the hit, you won't hear the hi-hat in exactly the same place, the image of the hats will be smeared a little to the other side of the kit. But you should still get a sense that the hats are either on the left or the right.

On this kit, there is a mono ambience channel too. not all of them have it. but then you get the hihats in stereo center in that ambience channel. But they are faint, and a mono amibence mic is a pretty common sound.

HTH

you should be able to set the mixer to one preset and just starting recording other stuff with no doubts.

[MattCurious]

Hey there

I think that realism generally refers to the sound of the instrument and the authenticity of the beat/fills (you know, like a drummer can do a roll on one drum with lots of different emphases whereas a machine can make it sound like a machine gun)

As far as panning is concerned, I think that just comes down to individual choice. But for what it's worth, I THINK most of the time I hear hi hats panned slightly to the left anyway - although I could be making that up unintentionally.

Matt

[mojobone]

Consider that the listener may have left and right speaker outputs swapped or have the headphones on 'backwards'; now, how much do you think the drum perspective matters? Worry about having a great and on-target song and a tight, well-balanced mix, sez I.

[Brock1]

To all,

I just checked out the panning issue. It's not the Overheads, it's the Ambience mic that is causing the "problem". I switched to Audience perspective, which puts the hat on the right...Ambience still has the hat mostly on the left. The overheads swapped just fine, meaning, yes, there is "smear" in the Overheads, but nowhere near like there is on the Ambience mic. With the Overheads, it sounded like they 'switched" panning. But even when i manually switched the stereo panning of the Ambience mic, it still had the hat mostly on the left...I don't get it.

I guess I'll stick with drummer perspective for now, just so it sounds more "normal".

As for libraries being picky, I watched a TAXI v episode with a library owner who said that if he gets orchestral songs and the instruments aren't panned exactly as they would be in a real orchestra pit, he instantly tosses the song.

I realize it's just one person, and that "orchestral" and "drummer vs audience" perspective are radically different from each other, but still...apparently they can afford to be THAT picky.

Thanks for all the replies!

Mike

[andygabrys]

is it the pop/rock kit? the standard one? i'll listen on this end.

well cool, at least you got some aspect of it figured and a way to move forwards.

as far as orchestral - there are a few different ways that an orchestra could be panned to reflect one of several different seating arrangements, but there seems to be one seating arrangement that is most commonly used, and that is the one that your reference is talking about. its arguably a little different with an orchestra, as you are really trying to put one over on the listener. Make them believe something completely fabricated of sampled instruments is a real orchestra, so any little thing that seems off can shatter that illusion.

with pop / rock - not so much. if there are actual guitars and basses and a vocal in there, things can be made to sound pretty close.

anyways...

[Brock1]

Andy,

It's the metal machine EZX.

I'm currently working exclusively on hard rock instrumentals to pitch to film/tv, since I have experience (and some success) in that field and it seems like a relatively "easy" place to start for learning mixing and such.

Once I re-join TAXI I will start posting songs in the Peer to Peer section.

Mike