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crashgates
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Post by crashgates » Fri May 14, 2021 9:46 pm

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Last edited by crashgates on Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Zaychi
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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by Zaychi » Sat May 15, 2021 1:50 am

I don't think repeating two chords for a whole song classifies as "solid songwriting". And why do you always drown your voice in these oceans of effects?

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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by BradGray » Sat May 15, 2021 4:26 am

Hey Crashgates,

With regards to the track, it would be helpful if you could provide some references of the sound that you're trying to target, for context. On initial listen, the song feels more like an idea is there more so than a full song. I think you could go back and review the form and structure of the track to make it better.

That said without it, here's what I hear:

1) It feels like the track with all the effects are building to something, but it stays the same for 3+ minutes; focusing on two-chords repeated.
2) The vocal effects could be good if the singer stepped out of them at some point, and came out front dry without effect later on. Could add some punch.

But stepping away from how it's produced and sounds, here's some general structure markers, for creating a song that people will enjoy.

1) Hit the first chorus by ~45 seconds, give or take.
2) If the song is Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus - get out by 2:00-2:20. Else people get bored
3) If the song is longer than 2:30, you need a bridge. You want to hit that bridge somewhere around the 1:40 mark. Else people get bored.
- Bridge should typically be something you've not heard before.
4) Chorus' should be getting bigger and standing out. Usually different chords and melody than the verses.

Overall I would suggest breaking down a couple of tracks in the style you're writing and analyze:

Intro Length
Verse Length
Pre-Chorus (or not)
Chorus
Verse II Length
Pre-Chorus (or not)
Chorus
Bridge (if applicable)
Chorus
Out

You could even pre-set a rhythm drum track in your DAW that changes for each of the sections, and write around that. Also leverage websites that have already broken down the music for you, and learn how to play a couple of the references. For me, it usually sparks additional ideas.

Hope that helps - good luck!
Brad

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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by Telefunkin » Sat May 15, 2021 6:28 am

I'm with Brad on this one, and his advice is all good. My attention was drifting by the 1m mark. IMHO the music and lyrics need a little more variation to sustain interest, and double-tracking can't disguise the weak vocal. Sorry if its a tough critique but I hope it helps.
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by cosmicdolphin » Sat May 15, 2021 12:22 pm

It sounds like preset rhythm number One from a Bontempi Home Keyboard circa 1988 accompanied by a chewed up cassette recording of someone singing in the shower on a continual loop for three minutes

I can imagine it being licensed for Guantanamo Bay when they are trying to break POWs

Mark

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Post by crashgates » Sat May 15, 2021 12:38 pm

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Last edited by crashgates on Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by BradGray » Sat May 15, 2021 1:58 pm

The hardest part in all of this learning, for me personally, is to not take the feedback personally. I write and compose lots of crap songs (not intentionally), that become the fertilizer for better tracks or the start of learning; it's all just part of the journey.

Then you begin to see your songs, and how they're arranged, in a very different way and learn something new with each and every track. If your intended audience is you, then write any way you see fit and it's perfect! If your writing for a particular audience, then study the arrangement, sounds, of similar artists.

Or just go for broke, like the Dad who believed in his kids talent so much he had this recorded for the world to embrace: My Pal Foot Foot

Strangely, it has somewhat of a cult following because it's so very bad. =P

Cheers,
Brad

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crashgates
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Post by crashgates » Sat May 15, 2021 2:44 pm

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Last edited by crashgates on Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feedback Appreciated Alt Indie

Post by AudiniAudio » Sun May 16, 2021 4:02 am

You guys are brutal but accurate in your critiques. I've heard so many things like this where they COULD have studied the typical section lengths AND discovered how they're announced. Or how they build up to the chorus with variety in the chords perhaps or increased harmonic rhythm. How the Chorus is announced is another stylistic marker. Typical good beginner practice if not thinking of a particular style is crash cymbal near beat one and a switch from high-hat to ride, increased instrumentation in the chorus, and a change in chord voicings like from closed to open or versa visa.

I think it's good to ask does the bass drum rhythm usually change when moving to the chorus in this style? Does it become more active, less, or stay the same?

Does the bass guitar's rhythm follow suit?

Does snare placement tend to stay the same or does it often change (ahead or behind the beat) during the change to the chorus in this style?

Do the toms become more active during drum fills (a kind of rhythmic cadence) which when combined with harmonic and melodic cadences really let you know that something has happened. Hopefully they hammer the idea that you've arrived home in the chorus.

Home would be a very stable chord in the key and a stable pitch in the scale. One thing that happens with amateur writers is they don't create variety with what the starting and ending chords and pitches are between sections. If the chorus is supposed to be home then the tonic chord and tonic pitch are the most homey of them all.

So if you land on a C major chord and the pitch C in the melody in the key of C major on beat one at the beginning of the chorus then maybe you shouldn't start with a C major chord or the note C in the verse. And whatever pitch you do use at the beginning of the verse, maybe it shouldn't come in on beat one which you're saving for the chorus.

Have popular songs used the chorus' starting chord and pitch on the first beat of the verse too. Yes, but they also probably sounded good when they did it and didn't strike everyone who heard it as begin boring which is why they could get away with it.

Also, if you arrive at pitch C in a strong position at the END of the verse then you've blown your most delicious cookie before you've increased the anticipation of making that oatmeal butterscotch yummy goodness taste even better.

Setting words to a melody is a complex animal but minimally, a repetitive rhythm would need to be alleviated with some variety now and then hopefully in a strategic/effective location say, I don't know, 3/4s of the way through the verse perhaps.

Another consideration, does the rhythm guitar or chording keyboard's rhythm follow the rhythm of the high-hat or some other part the percussionist is playing? Or does the chord rhythm fall between every percussive event so as to avoid a simultaneous onset?

So much to consider. That's why everyone and their dog aren't wealthy composers. America is famous for really GREAT songwriting. Just merely great actually doesn't cut it especially if we're no-names.

Young people think, I'll be a poet, or I'll be a guitarist, or I'll be a songwriter because all you need is just to rhyme right? You only need to really know three chords to make it big. I can just buy the gear and I'm sure my genius at combining ideas in my DAW will launch me to the stars and it all comes from the idea that this stuff is easy.

Everything has an art and there are no famous poets or lyricists who didn't work their asses off to figure it out. Hammerclawing a keyboard or a guitar with mindless chords and progressions doesn't get anyone anywhere. You especially need to have a rhythmic strategy when composing in your DAW or it all just sounds like wallpaper.

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Post by crashgates » Sun May 16, 2021 3:29 pm

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Last edited by crashgates on Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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