Feedback for submission to S210527RK

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Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by NMN » Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Hi everyone, I just received my first critical feedback that wasn't "Style/Genre is off target with the listing request", so I am wondering what your thoughts are about these two tracks and this listing (S210527RK). Most of the critique basically tells me that it wasn't catchy enough (didn't have a strong enough pop hook I guess). That's not really the goal of these two songs...most songs that I write have non-standard structures to them. These are the kinds of songs that are most interesting to me usually. I'm not really too concerned about this feedback.

However, in the feedback for the song "Beauty", it says "There are tuning, rhythm, or dissonance issues". The song "Beauty" definitely has a non-standard rhythm to it in places, but I'm not hearing the reasoning behind this. It's all MIDI driven stuff. Usually I don't quantize by clicking the 'Quantize' button in the DAW. I play the part and then manually move any out of place notes, but I try to make sure that everything lines up. So I might be missing something there? I checked my vocals against a piano and they seem to be in tune. What are your thoughts?

Beauty (Original)

NOTE: I am working on remastering these songs and have just posted a new version of "Beauty" here. I think that the re-master has more loudness, clarity, and impact to me so I'm wondering if I had submitted this version, that it would change any of the feedback that I received for this listing.
Beauty (Remaster)

Here is the other song that I submitted and received similar feedback for (minus the tuning/rhythm issues). This one doesn't have a remaster yet.
Microscope Lights


My other questions for you all are:
  • What are the chances that a library would select these songs for the instrumental portions of these song? Many of my songs have instrumental introductions and could be looped I would think. I figure if they aren't finding traditional catchy pop structures, then they can use parts of the songs.
  • What types of listings do you think these songs would be the best fit for?
Thanks for any feedback and for viewing my post!

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by cosmicdolphin » Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:28 am

NMN wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:45 pm
That's not really the goal of these two songs...most songs that I write have non-standard structures to them. These are the kinds of songs that are most interesting to me usually. I'm not really too concerned about this feedback.
Your reaction tells me you're looking at it all wrong - If you go out of your way to write songs with non-standard structures , odd time signatures/rhythms and dissonant parts then you're not fulfilling the needs of the end user which is ultimately a music -supe /editor on a TV show.

Sync Licensing is about serving somebody else's need, not showing how unique & clever you can be - You can save that for your own artist releases. "They" ( the publishers, music supervisors , libraries and screeners ) know what works and what doesn't work for their audience. Your job is to provide them with that.
NMN wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:45 pm
However, in the feedback for the song "Beauty", it says "There are tuning, rhythm, or dissonance issues". So I might be missing something there? I checked my vocals against a piano and they seem to be in tune. What are your thoughts?
Firstly, the intro is far too long , you want 4 - 8 bars and then get right into the song, nobody is going to listen to a minute long intro. If they want an extended instrumental portion they will use an instrumental version of the song and edit it how they want.

By the time I get to about 12 seconds in I'm already put off the track, the piano is fine ..the backwards strings jump out too much for my liking but it also has that odd drum rhythm which lurches around making you feel seasick and doesn't really work. Then the pitch sliding ( brass? ) part just makes the pitch centre of the whole thing sound off like a vinyl record that got left in the car on a sunny day and got warped.

So yeah I can agree with the screener , it just sounds like an unappealing mess - maybe that's what you were going for but it won't work for Sync. I suspect you are right that the vocals are in tune but it's hard to tell with everything going on around them.
NMN wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:45 pm
What are the chances that a library would select these songs for the instrumental portions of these song? Many of my songs have instrumental introductions and could be looped I would think.
Slim to none. If you want to make instrumentals for LIbraries that's an art in itself, they have different requirements to songs in terms of structure , edit points, how they build etc. Just lopping of the intro to a song generally won't cut it.

I think what you need to do first is understand what the clients need, as it's clearly not what you are making now.

Mark

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by Casey H » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:40 am

Taxi listings are about fairly specific client requirements. New members sometimes take a "shotgun" approach, submitting songs that are not even close to what the listing asked for. Most listings are looking for something that could sit well on a playlist with other current popular songs. This represents what music supervisors (and hence the libraries) are seeking. If songs are returned, that doesn't necessarily mean they are good or bad, just that they don't fit what's being asked for.

As far as the no-vocal tracks being usable, that MIGHT be possible using the raw material in your mixes. Your songs are very long and probably have too much going on. For BG cues, often less is more. You might try whittling down to around 2-2:30 of good material. Make it cohesive, not too busy, see if you can get it to a sectional format such as A-B-A. Listen with the volume down and see if any instruments jump out such that they would interfere with dialogue. No guarantees. There are "low end" (for lack of a better term, not meant judgemental to the libraries or your music) RF libraries where you might be able to pitch these if the Taxi client better libraries don't bite. (NOTE: We do not name libraries here on this forum, do some research on your own).

I do recommend some books...

https://www.amazon.com/Shortcuts-Songwr ... 0982004028

https://www.amazon.com/Demystifying-Cue ... 1500686107

https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Producti ... 1574243543

:D Casey

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by NMN » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm

Geesh Mr. Cosmic, tell me how you really feel about the track. I think I may have stumbled upon the resident contingent of the "wall of conformity". :D If you don't personally like the track Cosmic, that's perfectly fine.
cosmicdolphin wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:28 am
Your reaction tells me you're looking at it all wrong - If you go out of your way to write songs with non-standard structures , odd time signatures/rhythms and dissonant parts then you're not fulfilling the needs of the end user which is ultimately a music -supe /editor on a TV show.

Sync Licensing is about serving somebody else's need, not showing how unique & clever you can be - You can save that for your own artist releases. "They" ( the publishers, music supervisors , libraries and screeners ) know what works and what doesn't work for their audience. Your job is to provide them with that.

Firstly, the intro is far too long , you want 4 - 8 bars and then get right into the song, nobody is going to listen to a minute long intro. If they want an extended instrumental portion they will use an instrumental version of the song and edit it how they want.

By the time I get to about 12 seconds in I'm already put off the track, the piano is fine ..the backwards strings jump out too much for my liking but it also has that odd drum rhythm which lurches around making you feel seasick and doesn't really work. Then the pitch sliding ( brass? ) part just makes the pitch centre of the whole thing sound off like a vinyl record that got left in the car on a sunny day and got warped.

So yeah I can agree with the screener , it just sounds like an unappealing mess - maybe that's what you were going for but it won't work for Sync. I suspect you are right that the vocals are in tune but it's hard to tell with everything going on around them.
This particular listing was for Indie Rock. Many of the example tracks on the listings for this genre I am betting are going to have non-standard structured songs. That's just the way the genre is. I've listened to all sorts of Indie/Psych/Alternative music and I HIGHLY doubt that most of them were written for a client. Usually they are more written from the heart. I have also heard various parts of these types of songs on television and radio spots. So your advice there is not relevant or helpful. I'd much rather hear your personal opinions in the Peer-To-Peer post here. But, I really have no use for anyone's feedback that tells me that creating "clever" music is a bad thing.

Overall the feedback was much less negative for the songs than yours, Mr. Cosmic, so I was looking for answers to my specific questions. I understand that I will get some feedback from TAXI reviewers that pertain to what genre these songs might fit, or whether it has enough manufactured pop attitude, etc.

Mr. Cosmic, it sounds like you are finding success with TAXI writing specific music for clients and I congratulate you for that and wish you continued success.
Casey H wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:40 am
Taxi listings are about fairly specific client requirements. New members sometimes take a "shotgun" approach, submitting songs that are not even close to what the listing asked for. Most listings are looking for something that could sit well on a playlist with other current popular songs. This represents what music supervisors (and hence the libraries) are seeking. If songs are returned, that doesn't necessarily mean they are good or bad, just that they don't fit what's being asked for.

As far as the no-vocal tracks being usable, that MIGHT be possible using the raw material in your mixes. Your songs are very long and probably have too much going on. For BG cues, often less is more. You might try whittling down to around 2-2:30 of good material. Make it cohesive, not too busy, see if you can get it to a sectional format such as A-B-A. Listen with the volume down and see if any instruments jump out such that they would interfere with dialogue. No guarantees. There are "low end" (for lack of a better term, not meant judgemental to the libraries or your music) RF libraries where you might be able to pitch these if the Taxi client better libraries don't bite. (NOTE: We do not name libraries here on this forum, do some research on your own).

I do recommend some books...

https://www.amazon.com/Shortcuts-Songwr ... 0982004028

https://www.amazon.com/Demystifying-Cue ... 1500686107

https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Producti ... 1574243543

:D Casey
Casey, this is basically how I interpreted most of the reviewer feedback, and I guess that's probably to be expected with my first song submissions while I'm trying to get an idea of how the process works. Thanks for the reading links. They look informative. I do enjoy a good A-B-A-B song every now and again, but if I found myself preferring to listen to and to write that kind of music primarily, I might want to think about going to get checked out for "brain slugs". :D

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by Casey H » Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:16 pm

NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
I do enjoy a good A-B-A-B song every now and again, but if I found myself preferring to listen to and to write that kind of music primarily, I might want to think about going to get checked out for "brain slugs". :D
Hey NMN
You asked the question about using your no-vocal tracks as instrumental cues for libraries. :D If you are that opposed to structured formats, you may as well not be in this part of the music biz. If you are submitting to Taxi and libraries, you have to either go with what is most in demand or seek other types of outlets (not Film/TV production music) for your tracks. This goes for songs with vocals and cues both. Nothing wrong with deciding this isn't for you. But if it is something you want to pursue, you'll have to study up on what makes successful tracks tick here.

Best,
:D Casey

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by Telefunkin » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:31 pm

NMN wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:45 pm
What types of listings do you think these songs would be the best fit for?
A: Listings for the TV/film content where you hear this type of music, and if that's everywhere then you're doing fine, but if its nowhere then it'll be tough. When and where did you last hear any similar music on TV? Its fine to have your own artistic niche, but that will most likely limit your sync opportunities, certainly for mainstream TV.

Its great to be artistic and creative, but a huge amount of sync music has certain demands and expectations, and colouring outside of the lines for the sake of your art can make it difficult for your music to work for sync possibilities. Nobody here makes the rules, we just try to work within them to get some measure of success. That doesn't preclude artistry withing the creation of tracks for sync though, there's just some standard expectations, and conformity helps because its easier than trying to take on the world to change things. I think that's what others have tried to say.

EDIT: Check at 55:26 in this Taxi video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eva06hgFZO0

As for the screener comments on your tracks, I didn't particularly notice vocal tuning issues, but the vocals are somewhat unclear. The rhythm is unusual in the first track and not always adhered to by the other phrase samples, and I suspect the repetition, length and large break would have been considered stylistically off target, although I don't know what genre the listing was asking for (as your link shows the page where all current listings reside). I also hear some mix issues. However, if that's the way you like it then that's fine. There are no rules if its for your own pleasure, so enjoy creating whatever you like for whoever you want :).
Last edited by Telefunkin on Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by cosmicdolphin » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:34 pm

NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Geesh Mr. Cosmic, tell me how you really feel about the track.
I won't because if I did you'd probably throw your toys out the pram , quit Taxi, take your ball and go home, and you wouldn't be the first.
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
If you don't personally like the track Cosmic, that's perfectly fine.
It's got zero to do with if I like the track or not ( which I don't and I am fine with BTW ) but more to do with listening to many hundreds if not thousands of track now with a critical ear and knowing what works and what doesn't work for this industry. Watch the TV shows that use this stuff and absorb what they are about. That's your competition.
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
This particular listing was for Indie Rock. Many of the example tracks on the listings for this genre I am betting are going to have non-standard structured songs.
I am betting none of them have intros in excess of a minute either.
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
I've listened to all sorts of Indie/Psych/Alternative music and I HIGHLY doubt that most of them were written for a client. Usually they are more written from the heart. I have also heard various parts of these types of songs on television and radio spots.
So have I but most of the TV -Film-Ad spots are not fulfilled by hit songs unless there's a huge budget, neither are they dissonant , with odd rhythms or have parts that jump out of the mix to stab you in the eye with minute long intros. They're going to be really well produced , slick and on the whole catchy or else they wouldn't be hit songs that people ( aka consumers ) identify with. Writing from the heart is fine but if your heart doesn't have a commercial soul then expect your body of work produce crickets in the sync world.
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
So your advice there is not relevant or helpful. I'd much rather hear your personal opinions in the Peer-To-Peer post here. But, I really have no use for anyone's feedback that tells me that creating "clever" music is a bad thing.
And that paragraph tell me all I need to know about why you will quit after a year or two of very few forwards, no Library contacts and zero placements
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Overall the feedback was much less negative for the songs than yours, Mr. Cosmic,
They have much lower standards than I do, go back and ask if they've gotten anywhere yet.
NMN wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Mr. Cosmic, it sounds like you are finding success with TAXI writing specific music for clients and I congratulate you for that and wish you continued success.
Over 400 tracks signed to Libraries, approaching 100 placements. Thank you.

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by Casey H » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm

Cosmicdolphin: You are a bright and talented guy with a track record of success. Why do you feel the need to be so rude to people as part as giving feedback? I've been on this forum since it's creation around 2004. This community has always been one of the best as far as the helpful, giving spirit. We've had incredibly successful members, some earning $100K or more a year in Film/TV music, selflessly giving advice and feedback. Feedback was constructive and to the point but there was never this kind of aggressive nastiness and rudeness.

It's not that hard to make your points without well... sh*tting all over people.

It makes me sad to see the tone of your posts in this wonderful community, one that I will even go as far as to say, I helped build. It would mean a lot to me and I'm sure a great many others here if you would be respectful to others when giving feedback. All I can do is ask.

Best,
Casey

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by cosmicdolphin » Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:48 pm

Casey H wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm
All I can do is ask.
Snowflake (slang) : From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Snowflake" is a 2010s derogatory slang term for a person, implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness, an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or are overly-emotional, easily offended, and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms "special snowflake", "Generation Snowflake", and "snowflake" as a politicized insult.

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Re: Feedback for submission to S210527RK

Post by NMN » Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:20 pm

Casey H wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm
Cosmicdolphin: You are a bright and talented guy with a track record of success. Why do you feel the need to be so rude to people as part as giving feedback? I've been on this forum since it's creation around 2004. This community has always been one of the best as far as the helpful, giving spirit. We've had incredibly successful members, some earning $100K or more a year in Film/TV music, selflessly giving advice and feedback. Feedback was constructive and to the point but there was never this kind of aggressive nastiness and rudeness.

It's not that hard to make your points without well... sh*tting all over people.

It makes me sad to see the tone of your posts in this wonderful community, one that I will even go as far as to say, I helped build. It would mean a lot to me and I'm sure a great many others here if you would be respectful to others when giving feedback. All I can do is ask.

Best,
Casey
It's very strange Mr. Cosmic that you came to this Forum Topic to specifically give me negative feedback on production values (which I didn't ask for). Although I didn't mention these specifically, I received some positive feedback on production from the reviewer. I think we all should have been warned of the dangers of cliques in grade school, gentlemen. Don't join them.

One of the first things Michael mentioned on a recent episode of TAXI TV is that this is not a competition. You have posted to this forum topic attempting to preemptively create a competition and a distracting, pointless rivalry with me with your rhetoric. It won't work. :D I see people acting like this all over the news every day and I don't need to see it here. Knowing now that you choose to be a person that achieves some personal success and then appoints themselves to bring out their tiny gong whenever something is new and different, your feedback is even more useless to me.

Unfortunately, I can't change the fact that you seem to be scared or threatened by the level of uniqueness and creativity of these songs. As Casey mentions above, you are not representing yourself or TAXI well with your conduct. If this is the sort of nonsense that I can expect here, then I am already disappointed. Best of luck continuing to have success with whatever type of music you create, Mr Cosmic.

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