Feedback request: Sad Orchestral piece

[ITBAudio]

Been playing around with this piece lately and doesn't sound quite right to me....

https://soundcloud.com/user-874963369/tears-in-the-rain

I like the piano, happy with the sound of that and the way it progresses along with the atmospheric pad and the vocal but the strings don't sound right to me, especially when playing the high notes.

They don't seem to gel in the mix very well, I'm using Albion One for the sound. Any tips for making the mix a little smoother and getting everything to 'gel' together?

[BradGray]

It sounds good to my ears - great work!

The only thing I noticed was the big BOOMs (I'm assuming to represent thunder) could be sent further back in the mix a bit. When they boom in they are overpowering all the low and mid - perhaps dial them back a little, or add some reverb to push them further back.

Overall, it already sounds really good.

Cheers,
Brad

[AlanHall]

My only comment is when the cello enters at around :40 it could be louder. When the full orchestra enter at 1:00, it's a bit sudden for me.

[edmondredd]

Hey ITBAudio,
Not sure if this is for a listing or not. I'll assume it is not for a specific one.
The first thing that sounds really apparent whenever the string section comes in is that it's played as a keyboard player would play the chords.
Try a different voicing approach with notes varying depending on the sections.
That, of course, if you're looking for some realism.
I hope that helps

[ITBAudio]

Thank you for the feedback folks!

@Edmondredd: "The first thing that sounds really apparent whenever the string section comes in is that it's played as a keyboard player would play the chords.
Try a different voicing approach with notes varying depending on the sections." Can you expand on this? I kind of get what you're saying, that it sounds a bit midi and could be more realistic, a different voicing approach? Varying the dynamics and expression a bit more on the strings?

[steveprobst]

I am starting to write this type of thing myself, so not an expert.

I agree, strings needed to be massaged more-volume, expression. Give yourself credit for knowing it's not right yet.
I've watched some Youtube videos of guys doing this. In fact, there are YouTube videos of guys from Spitfire (Albion or whatever library) as they compose, how they do it.

[mwb2]

Thank you for the feedback folks!

@Edmondredd: "The first thing that sounds really apparent whenever the string section comes in is that it's played as a keyboard player would play the chords.
Try a different voicing approach with notes varying depending on the sections." Can you expand on this? I kind of get what you're saying, that it sounds a bit midi and could be more realistic, a different voicing approach? Varying the dynamics and expression a bit more on the strings?

Are you familiar with "voice leading"? If not I assume there are good videos on youtube now, though I'm not familiar with any (I learned from a book back in the day...).

Cheers,
Mike

[edmondredd]

Can you expand on this? I kind of get what you're saying, that it sounds a bit midi and could be more realistic, a different voicing approach? Varying the dynamics and expression a bit more on the strings?

That's a very, very long subject and I'm going to try to make it as short as possible:
Each section of the orchestra has its role and range of playable notes. If you go out of range or play "irrealistically", it will automatically sound weird to the ear.
For the strings, you should think of the section as 5 elements containing each several players. These 5 elements cover the spectrum of frequency, ie: double basses and celli (or cellos) for low, and low mid, violas for mid, violins for high mid and high.
So try first splitting your string section instead of playing an ensemble patch (you could use this ensemble patch to get more fullness in your mix).
Make your double basses play low octaves. No thirds, no fifths.. root notes (or eventually the bass melody)
Keep your low range well spread: don't try to play full chords. Add a fifth to your violas rather than to the celli. However, when you get into the higher register use tighter chords and closer notes.

This is probably the first step to have a cleaner and a more realistic string sound.

After chord voicing, you'd want to look at your chord progression and see how can you transition from one to another one by adding additional notes to one of those 5 elements of the string section:
For example, if you're playing a C major and then an F major, you could add a D, and then an E on the Violins II while the rest stays constant. Or if you're playing a C major and A minor, you could add a B note in the celli section. You have to create some sort of relationship between the chords, just like letters, words sentences, paragraphs.. so on and so forth.
Another trick is to keep some notes sustained between 2 or more chords. So if your playing again a C, Am, F chord progression, note C is common to all those 3. So maybe give the Violins I the C5 note to play all throughout, or maybe the E5, since it's respectively the third, the 5th and the 7th.

This would be your second step in creating a more realistic string sound and your first step in making a realistic performance.
Performance. You probably are aware of the velocity, modulation and expression parameters that you should automate and probably randomize.
There are few other tricks as well:
- Quantize. Now before getting into an interminable discussion, let me just explain. Your performance or any human performance will never be perfect. So quantization is not recommended. However when you need to control it, if the performance is not perfect, you'll run into trouble. So first hard quantize all the sections. Next use the humanize option (available under different names and shortcuts depending on the DAW you're using), and move the notes by some ticks (10, 12, 15). This nudge might not be perceptible but it does add the human element to it.
- Detune. Some libraries have that option, which is better. But if you don't have it, try detuning the performance (and if you can randomize it that would definitely be better) by just a couple of cents. See, string players are not all hitting 100% pitch-perfect, and those variations are what makes an orchestra sounds like an orchestra.
-Timing. Make sure when you use long strings, that their timing is correct. Most of the string library sounds have a somewhat slow attack, which makes them coming in late to the beat. You will want to move those regions in order to have them on time. In Logic you can add some sort of negative delay instead of moving the notes on the piano roll.
-Articulations. If needed, don't forget that the strings instruments have a lot of ways of being performed. So adding those articulations from time to time, such as a glissando playing in parallel with a riser, or maybe some staccato violas while the Violins I and II are playing lush long chords, or a pizzicato double bass.. the list is endless. But keep in mind, these subtle elements add a lot to the realism.

The last thing would be layering, but that is a subject on its own and can be applied to any section of the orchestra. In a nutshell, there are 2 sorts of layering:
1. Layering 2 or more different string sounds: So you would take the best of both worlds
2. Layering 2 or more different sections of the orchestra to play the same thing, like Violins 1 and french horns to play the same melody. You're adding textures.

I hope I didn't make it too complicated, and I really hope that helps

[SamGreene]

This course teaches voice leading and writing 4 part harmony. https://scoreclub.net/the-courses/

I think you're off to a decent start. They are pretty simple and that is fine. I'd ease the volume down out at the end of each phrase using modulation. There could be some more movement in the bass line to add some interest. Hard for me to distinguish, but it seems to just drone on 1 or two low notes where it could move at the end of each phrase to flow into the high string line - but you would perhaps want to lower the piano arpeggios to create more room.

[ITBAudio]

Thank you edmondredd, very useful!