free samples on condition of giving credit to owner-how?

[pepeluis]

hi Folks,
I occasionally come across various samples which are made available free for any usage providing the user gives a credit to the owner.
Obviously if I were using the samples on an album etc then it would be straightforward enough to do this but how would I do this for a song using such a sample then submitted to a Taxi listing?
As placements that I have had in the past often don't give me (the writer) a credit I am puzzled to see how I could give the owner of any such samples one.
In this type of scenario is it best just to not use such samples as I would be unable to fulfill the owners copyright terms of usage?
any thoughts would be really helpful. Thanks in advance.
Pepe

[pboss]

Unless the license agreement specifically state that you can use them for production libraries, usually you would want to stay away and not use them at all. I think that when the license asks for credit, it may be for those cases where you can do that, like on your artist album. But as soon as you sign that track to a library etc, it's out of your hands how to credit the library, it seems to me.

I think Liquid Grooves used to say that on their license agreement, but you hear those Liquid Grooves in media and of course, they are not credited. For example, I've heard them in an advertisement on TV. Composers do contact these sample library owners sometimes and get the authorization or license for their particular use. When in doubt, I say don't use them. But first, try to contact the sample maker and get permission in writing for your purposes. This permission may state that the samples may be used without crediting them in cases of a derivative work, signed to a music production library, used in broadcast.

[pepeluis]

Hi Patty,
thanks for your helpful reply, makes sense and is good advice.

One source of some good sounds say on their site "You are FREE to use these samples in any way you choose Please Give Us Credit! ", they suggest emailing them with the track so they can put it on their site with added suggestion of buying them a beer! (this is made very easy with a Paypal button!).

With this particular site I did contact them a while back describing what I would like to do with the samples to double check I could use them. This is an outline of the reply....

`Yes please do use them in your projects. A credit to ****.com would be most appreciated - and hey - we often blog about how people use these samples so please do drop us a line describing any final mixes.
I fully take your point that I need to be 100% sure I have permission in writing for my intended usage and if I have any doubts at all then leave well alone.

Thanks again.
Pepe

[pboss]

I would take that as, "you're in the clear". They seem very open and flexible and they state in the license agreement that you can use them how you want (perhaps their statement is naive, because they did not appear to forbid using them in a new sample library, which is the one thing all of the sample libraries usually say). But I think what they're after is building some credibility by having demo pieces on their website, and sure, if you get a placement or have a deal, and you are free contractually to offer a track or info about your track made with their samples so they can include it in their PR, go for it.

But be warned, that you may want some parameters about giving permission to use your demo. I mean, what if you said, 'use it' and later, their company gets all big, or gets bought by some other company and suddenly your music is being used in a way you don't approve of, then you want an 'out', or you happen to sign away the copyright. Those concerns are more of an aside, just to be aware of.

But sure, send them a beer, and let them know when you get a placement with the track, I'm sure they would love it. Some of these sample library makers work very hard to make good stuff, and it's nice to show them appreciation when you can. I sent a sample library maker a thank you email a few weeks ago, because I was psyched that the stuff sounded so great. He wrote me right back. and said he showed the email to his wife.

[pepeluis]

Hi Patty and everyone,
thanks very much for your thoughts all of which are very helpful.
In this particular case it is not a sample library offering free samples but a brass section who come up on Google first page when I searched for free brass samples. They don't do other sounds aside from brass and I think are promoting their services to add real brass to your track for a fee. they have done brass for some well known artists and their work sounds great. I would love to use them on my tracks (and hope to one day soon) but it is difficult to spend that much money on a track that might or might not bring in a return.

Patty your astute advice on possible consequences of their usage of my demo had never occurred to me, I think in this case it may not be a great risk but I still value your thoughts.

What I will do to be as sure as I can is contact them again telling them exactly what I do and what my intention is for songs (pitch to music libraries aiming to get TV/Film placements). I will make clear that I would be unable to credit them and check that they are OK if I `buy them a beer` via their Paypal button. The samples are hi res mp3s (over 60 of them). I will send them a demo when the track is finished (I also use other brass on the track from a purchased sample cd). It would be a shame not to be able to use their samples as they are perfect for the track but at the same time I need to cover myself legally and also offer something in lieu of giving them a credit as effectively it is a term of the license as I understand it.
Many thanks again. Pepe

[pboss]

They don't do other sounds aside from brass and I think are promoting their services to add real brass to your track for a fee.

OK, well, that's different. You are talking about having studio session players add a live performance to your track, correct? This would be a work-for-hire and paperwork would be needed to protect yourself, to prove that you paid them and that they don't own rights to the audio or content, if that's what you want to do. The other option is to collaborate. So, they are offering session horn performances, right? If so, you can do a little bit of research on how the Nashville and other 'demo' studios proceed in these circumstances. There's a question about who's writing the horn parts, too. Make sure that if you use them, that you get paperwork signed for the individual songs on which they are contributing. This is a whole 'nother banana bread. (I must be hungry, I mean who says that? - and who wants to eat wax?).

[pepeluis]

Hi Patty,

thanks for your advice again. Banana bread sounds good !! I've had no breakfast yet (UK time zone!)

would the requirement to provide `work for hire` documentation also apply if I am just using the samples they provide free on their website rather than getting them to add live brass to the track?

I am not so familiar with Work For Hire rules although I understand it is an issue when using session players. I am in the UK but I guess if the library is in the US any requirements would be subject to US law. in the UK I would ask the session musician to sign a release form which proves they have received payment for session and have no further claim on the track. I have read a bit about how it matters in the US regarding union musicians (one library I am with goes into some detail).
If using these samples requires further paperwork etc it may be easier just to do without them and buy something useable from a Royalty free stock music site. I have checked with a couple and their license allows any usage in perpetuity (as long as incorporated into a track etc and not used alone or made part of another library). Failing that buy another sample CD to try and find similar sounds.

Once again your thoughts are much appreciated.
Pepe

[pboss]

...would the requirement to provide `work for hire` documentation also apply if I am just using the samples they provide free on their website rather than getting them to add live brass to the track?

I think it's one or the other. Advice above on each route. I don't know about UK laws. There are good postings here in this forum on both areas, too.

[pepeluis]

Many thanks for the advice. will refer to previous posts on forum.
best
Pepe

[pboss]

will refer to previous posts on forum.

Hey, a quick way to find stuff in this forum is to use the Google search instead of the internal one. Unlike the internal search engine, you do not have to be logged in. Plus the Google search allows you to use quotes and limit the results to just this forum).

For example, for the work for hire thread search you could use this search text:

site:forums.taxi.com "WFH" "work for hire"