Help finding sounds / sound design elements

[SamGreene]

Hi,

I'm trying to analyze and reproduce a track as an exercise. I'm struggling with the small details - pads, arps, swells/washes. After a listen, you may say I'm struggling with other things, but to me I'm getting other elements reasonably close. Hopefully not a ridiculous exercise - I feel like much of production is getting the right sounds

https://rcrft.co/reel/0cb6f65b-67b9-4ca ... a5a20d336f

I'm having trouble finding similar elements in my toolbox of sounds. Many of the presets I come across seem a bit over the top - made for techno. Maybe I just need to look longer - or roll up my sleeves and create them from scratch.

At my disposal:

NI Komplete
Output samples/plugs
Logic Pro X

- The shimmering moving 'pad/texture' that comes in at the end of the intro (11). Tried to recreate using output signal. My version sound like a beeping alarm.
- The pad that hits when the drums come in (14). Used Logic Alchemy and tweaked attack time on a preset. Not as detailed and smooth as the reference.
- The arp (?) that starts on the second repetition after the drums come in (:28). Low and hard to hear, but has a really cool pattern to it. Maybe this is hand programmed sequence? Just not getting the same feel on this one.

What would be your go to plugin(s) to recreate these sounds?

Also can't seem to get nearly the same mix on mine. Did they use some kind of stereo processing effect on it?

Thanks,
Sam

[MBantle]

Hi,

I'm trying to analyze and reproduce a track as an exercise. I'm struggling with the small details - pads, arps, swells/washes. After a listen, you may say I'm struggling with other things, but to me I'm getting other elements reasonably close. Hopefully not a ridiculous exercise - I feel like much of production is getting the right sounds

https://rcrft.co/reel/0cb6f65b-67b9-4ca ... a5a20d336f

I'm having trouble finding similar elements in my toolbox of sounds. Many of the presets I come across seem a bit over the top - made for techno. Maybe I just need to look longer - or roll up my sleeves and create them from scratch.

At my disposal:

NI Komplete
Output samples/plugs
Logic Pro X

- The shimmering moving 'pad/texture' that comes in at the end of the intro (11). Tried to recreate using output signal. My version sound like a beeping alarm.
- The pad that hits when the drums come in (14). Used Logic Alchemy and tweaked attack time on a preset. Not as detailed and smooth as the reference.
- The arp (?) that starts on the second repetition after the drums come in (:28). Low and hard to hear, but has a really cool pattern to it. Maybe this is hand programmed sequence? Just not getting the same feel on this one.

What would be your go to plugin(s) to recreate these sounds?

Also can't seem to get nearly the same mix on mine. Did they use some kind of stereo processing effect on it?

Thanks,
Sam

Is the link you provided your production or the one you are going to use as a reference for the exercise?
NI Komplete + Output (full package) & Logic X should suffice to imitate that (i.e. the reference).
Cheers,
Matt

[SamGreene]

Matt, that link has both the reference track and my attempt at the first 3 4 bar sections.

[ttully]

Hi Sam,

When the bass comes in on your track...it is pulsing half as fast as the reference.
At :28 on your track..the 2nd piano part is much louder than on the reference.

Also on your track the triplet pulsing muted guitar is not exactly with the beat at times...you'll notice in the reference it hits EXACTLY in time.

As far as the shimmer synth at 14..I don't know what they are using... and yes your pad in the intro is completely different.

The reference has a compressor keeping the piano notes the same volume.

You are close...

My 3 cents,
Tim

[RPaul]

Hi Sam,

I can't comment on what I'd used to recreate the sounds, but there are a few things that strike me in listening to your track versus the reference track. In fact, even looking at the waveforms for both tracks make some differences apparent without even listening (but are confirmed by listening).

First, look at the dynamic range differences between the two tracks. In the reference track, the first part of the waveform is relatively short compared to yours, and also compared to the second part of the wave reference track. This is suggesting to me that your overall track may be fairly heavily compressed to shrink the dynamic range. Similarly, the difference between the peaks and troughs within the second part of the track have a much greater difference than in your track, which again suggests much more compression on your track. And, in fact, that comes through in listening where, for example, there is less of a difference between the guitar level and the piano level in the first part of the track. In the reference track the guitar is pretty subliminal, while it stands out much more in yours.

Second, I think the reference probably has a fair deal more reverb than yours, thus smoothing out the overall feel of the track.

Third, my sense of the sounds in the reference is that they soften the attack in a number of the cases. The guitar (on the other hand) feels like almost all attack in the reference, while yours has more body, but that also helps the reference track's guitar be more subliminal since it isn't as much about the pitched portion of the sound as it is about the front-end noise portion of the sound, making it more like a percussive/textural element.

So, sound design aside, I think you could get more mileage by letting there be more dynamic range in your track, letting it be more ambient, and considering the functions of some of the parts, like the guitar, which is could be more percussive and less pitch-oriented.

Rick

[ResonantTone]

Hey Sam,

Just a quick word of encouragement for ya. Doing this sort of exercise is extremely beneficial on so many levels. I’ve done it myself many times, and I usually come away with a few different things.

1) It pushes me to try to approaches and techniques that I haven’t used before. Creativity when trying to recreate sounds can really help push the boundaries of your skill set, and helps you grow as a producer.

2) It helps my ear to hear nuances that I haven’t picked up on before. Ear training is ridiculously important imo.

3) Even if you don’t recreate what you’re shooting for very well, I’ve found that many times the attempts and creative approaches give me new techniques of my own that have become part of my sound. There are some really great techniques to be discovered that may turn out to be a go to for your productions, even if they are light years away from what the original artist used in their track.

Keep at it.. it’s a win win to work on stuff like this.

Andrew

[andygabrys]

Nice work! Like Andrew says recreating a song teaches you so much.

There are some important things that I hear that might give you a different way to go:

In the intro:

1) the high piano melody on yours is played to high in the dynamic range so you are getting too much bite. Soften up that sound (assuming its MIDI, pull down the velocities quite a bit). At the same time, work on your compression settings to give evenness but not an ice pick front end to the notes. Like reduce attack, lengthen release, or try a gentle piano friendly compressor like an LA-2A
2) the piano LH chords played on yours are much quieter. They could be brought up in level which would give the intro more body and would appear less dynamic and more even.
3) the intro guitar figure - like what you have, but yours is louder on the higher note. Its also thinner and brighter. I would play it in a higher position on the guitar, and palm mute it a bit more, and consider a different pick or even thumb. Same deal with compression here - concentrate on a less harsh front attack to the note. Using a transient designer and pulling down the attack a bit could help.
4) intro swell at 0:11. Sure you haven't nailed the actual synth sound. But to make yours appear more like the original in vibe, you could work on an actual swell from zero volume. Also using Signal is cool, but you are a little bit hamstrung with the variety of sounds resident in the plugin. So creating it from scratch using Massive could work too. You can program tempo synced patches in massive as well as it being easier to change the attack and release of the sound. Your sound is a lot sharper and slowing the attack of the sound slightly would make it less sharp, as would using the low pass filter, as would adding a little more ambience. It sounds like that patch in the ref also might have some delay on it and it sounds like its panning double the speed or more compared to yours.

Once the drums hit:

1) the first high pad - sounds like your voicing is too high. Sounds like a little low pass filter on their synth sound too. And the ref has a short played note, with a long release on the synth, and a good deal of ambience. Again, easy to do in Massive (which you have in Komplete).
2) second sequence at 0:28 - likely not hand programmed. Feels like a repetitive pattern which sounds random against the other things moving around. Kinda sounds FM synth like. In Mono it sounds like a steady pulse.

Mix wise:

To me the main thing is they are taking some highs out of more sounds - letting them be a bit fatter.

I don't get a lot of sense of difference in width - but how loud and fat things are on the wings (i.e. guitars) can make a mix sound wider or narrower.

Listen to your mix and the ref in mono. This opened things up.

Now I hear that there is a very quiet pulse going through the entire piece. It sounds like the synth swell at 0:11 actually starts at the beginning of the piece and its very high passed and low passed so that its a thinner smaller sound, just to give locomotion and vibe. Then at 0:11 the low pass is opened via automation and maybe some high pass as well to give that sound. Which is then repeated starting with the drums and then appears again at 0:37.

You hear the drums in half time. Count a quick 4 against that. And then those quick 4 divide into 16ths. That's the rate of the pulse.

The guitars are playing on the first, 4th, and 7th 16ths of every group of 8 16ths. Not a triplet feel. In mono I hear some timing issues on yours.

The bass that comes in halfway through plays a steady 8th note (against the fast 4 count). Its got a little less high and definition than your bass part - it could be a synth too. It would be easy to make that kind of pattern and vary the ADSR of the synth to give exactly the kind of definition you need between notes. Massive again. Or The logic synths - the ES ones. Logic is pretty stacked with different basic and not so basic synths right out of the box.

I am guessing if you looked at the ref on a freq analyzer it would be fairly even.
Yours sounds like it has a hole between 150-400hz and an extended high end 5khz and above.

something that helps a lot with this kind of issue (mix balance) is iZotope Neutron / Ozone advanced bundle - the Tonal Balance plugin can really help get things even. It just helps to show you what you are missing or adding to much of. But its also possible to do it with the stock logic stuff. If you can figure out what you are looking for.

Having Output, Logic, and Komplete - you have (IMO) plenty of raw sounds to make this work.

Logic has a ton of synths built in (the basic stuff) that you can learn to program to give some pretty cutting edge patches. The ES synths. Unfortunately the stock patches are pretty vanilla at this point, but can give you a good starting point. Its got lots of effects and stuff too. Like the Logic X Enveloper could be used as a transient designer.

Its got a great ARP in the MIDI plugins which is magic for these kind of repeated figures for electronic ear candy or backdrop.

Its also got the Match EQ - would would be good to tune on the ref track in your daw session, and then compare against your mix eq. It will give you a good idea where the holes are, and if you are jacking too much high end.

Hope that helps. Sorry for the essay.

[SamGreene]

Thanks all for the comments - lost track of this thread. Also reworked an anthemic rock reference track from a dispatch listing someone posted that had a black keys meets NIN vibe. Getting the drum sounds even close took some labor. I started out my ‘production career’ by recreating Pink Floyd’s time on a cheap stereo with a kareoke type overdub function. Later that year I got a computer setup and did a deftones song. I don’t think I’ve done a recreation since then - probably 20 years ago!

With these pieces I also mapped all the parts out in a spreadsheet to get a detailed picture of all the layers. Several pieces of feedback involved needing more layers or ARC, so I think doing this analysis and applying to my own work is going to help. And then doing the same analysis on future reference tracks.

I’m on a phone right now, so replying to all your comments isn’t going to happen. I’ll have to absorb them and play with some of the recommended tools. Thanks again for taking the time to listen and write such thoughtful feedback.