How many are both writers AND publishers?

[matto]

Quote:It's easy to become a publisher. Have you put out your own CD? Guess what, you quailfy! I just think it's kind of dumb to turn over half of the potential royalties to a stranger when you don't have to.I view these kind of licensing deals as shady and some of these shady folks are simply taking advantage of the uninformed, the innocent or the ignorant. There's certainly nothing "shady" about a publisher asking for part or all of the publisher's royalties. Nor is there anything "dumb" about giving up part or all of your publishing to the right publisher.If they are doing their job properly, they will work hard at pitching your music, and hopefully make you lots of money in the process; you wouldn't expect them to do that for free, now would you?It may be easy to become a publisher, but it's anything but easy to do THE JOB of a publisher. Unless you have tons of connections, plenty of spare time, a great work ethic, a winning salesman-type personality and are good at pitching, casting and, in general, marketing your music, your "publishing company" will be nothing but a vanity project and you'll be sitting there owning 100% of nothing...and we all know how much that is... I think a lot of artists and songwriters are hurting themselves by being too paranoid about giving up part or all of the publishing. The right publisher can do so much more with your music than you could on your own, they can open doors for you, make you money and help you amass some credits, which in turn will cause the music industry to take you more seriously and ultimately lead to deals that are more in your favor.Here's something a publisher at the Road Rally had to say (I'm paraphrasing): "We do all kinds of deals, from deals where we own the song and get 100% of the publishing, to co-publishing where we'll get maybe 25% of the publishing. Writers always think it's in their best interest to hold on to as much of the publishing as possible, but that's not necessarily always the case. Think of it from the publisher's standpoint: If I have two songs in my catalog that are up for the same major movie placement and for song A the writer gave us 100% of the publishing, while for song B the writer only let us have 25%, guess which song I'm going to be pushing more..."In this case the songwriter who gave up all his publishing will end up with a major movie placement, a significant amount of cash and a killer credit, while the "smart" guy who held on to 75% of his publishing gets nothing.Food for thought.matto

[matto]

Quote:I'm wondering how Film/TV placements generally get handled. Do they require 100% of publishing, or are they willing to split publishing?It depends. I think you'll find most publishers/music libraries who are really good at what they do will want 100% of the publisher's share, although they may not necessarily want ownership of the copyright.Of course, if you were to pitch directly to music supervisors (for example thru Taxi Dispatch), you'd typically get to keep everything.

[matto]

Quote:Am I wrong? Matto --- Matto, where are you!? Typically they own it. There's usually a clause in the contract which says (in about a hundred words of legalese ) that you're assigning ownership of the song to them. It's not always the case in film and tv, though.matto

[gunter]

Quote:Here's something a publisher at the Road Rally had to say (I'm paraphrasing): "We do all kinds of deals, from deals where we own the song and get 100% of the publishing, to co-publishing where we'll get maybe 25% of the publishing. Writers always think it's in their best interest to hold on to as much of the publishing as possible, but that's not necessarily always the case. Think of it from the publisher's standpoint: If I have two songs in my catalog that are up for the same major movie placement and for song A the writer gave us 100% of the publishing, while for song B the writer only let us have 25%, guess which song I'm going to be pushing more..."In this case the songwriter who gave up all his publishing will end up with a major movie placement, a significant amount of cash and a killer credit, while the "smart" guy who held on to 75% of his publishing gets nothing.Reading matto's posts is always very educational!Thanks a lot matto!

[davewalton]

BUSINESS 101I'm an "old guy". These are just my experiences and may not be applicable for everyone. Also, this assumes that the person you're dealing with is generally reputable.Essentially in almost any given situation, there are beggars and choosers. More often than not, failure to successfully conclude any negotiation comes about as a result of the beggar being unrealistic about which category he or she fits into. If I believe that I'm the chooser, when in reality I'm the beggar, I'm likely to ask for unrealistic concessions from the chooser. The chooser won't give me those concessions because they don't have to. The deal ends, but only for me. The chooser ultimately makes a deal with someone else, so I'm the only one that winds up without a deal. And without any credits from that lost deal I'm the ultimate beggar once again when negotiating the next potential deal. And so it goes in a never-ending cycle. I'm thinking I'm "winning" each battle but I'm losing the war.My advice, FWIW. Be realistic about your power to negotiate a deal. Concentrate on getting a deal and then doing repeat business with that person or company. It's MUCH easier and you become more of a chooser. Don't think that the most recent best song you wrote is your best song. Next week, next month, next year, you'll have a new "best" song. A deal that gives 100% of publisher royalities away is only a bad deal if you realistically could have placed that song into more venues than the publisher (not likely). And last but not least, credits are the most valuable currency for future paid projects. I'm feeling a little fiesty this morning.

[onoffon]

If a publisher has the ability to earn money as a fee for placing your music, he is going to actively promote it and try to place it. If he's not earning anything from your music, he will promote music he can make money from.It's a two-way street...

[feloniuspunk]

I guess I'm just leery of the unknown, especially music publishers that I really don't know and haven't worked with before. Like someone said earlier, you need to make sure the person/company you're dealing with is reputable. But how do you know if they are? The big names like Capitol, Atlantic, Sony are no-brainers but there are a lot of small mom and pop companies out there as unknown as I am.For the average independent songwriter out here in middle America plugging away writing our tunes hoping for that big break so to speak, how do we know when that knock on the door comes that it's an opportunity from someone we can trust?I need a warm fuzzy about people I do business with. It extends all the way down to the sidemen I hire to play in my band for one-nighters. I'm not comfortable hiring an unknown player if I don't know that he can read music. Why would I be any less suspicious of signing away the rights to my songs to a big unknown music publisher just because they say they want to do good things for me? Yes I know they are in it to make money too but that doesn't mean people still don't ripped off if they are not cautious.I do agree that big well known publishers can do wonders for placing my music where I never could. The hard part, in my mind, is letting go of the copyright. That's what all the horror stories you hear are about. Plus I still don't see why the average independent songwriter (like me) producing yourself (like me) doesn't also take the extra step of becoming their own publisher (like me). After all it's so easy. In my mind it adds a bargaining chip to my side of the table. You get forwarded from Taxi. The library or producer contacts you and wants to use your tune or tunes in his movie.One of the first questions he asks you is if you are already published. If you answer yes, even though it's just a technicality of being published by yourself, you already have the t's crossed and i's dotted to negotiate as the publisher for your own tunes to assign them over to another publisher who can then push your songs in the great big world market.Yes, you can win the battle as someone pointed out and end up holding onto 100% of nothing. But as a publisher striking a deal with another publisher you can also agree to go into a deal with your eyes wide open and bargain for 50% of the songwriter royalties with the other publisher.I don't know. I'm still pretty new to all this myself and confess that I learn a lot by asking this type of question here on this forum. I appreciate all the fantastic responses form everyone.

[h2000]

It sounds like you have considered both sides, which is a good thing. As we all know, there are a million ways to strike a deal and infinite possibilities. Things may work out better one way or another, but we have no way to know in advance. Do what you feel is right for you.I will ad that before signing away any rights to a publisher, investigate their history. What is their track record?, etc. Any publisher would be willing to brag about any accomplishments they have. Also, I would recommend a revision clause giving them x amount of time to place the song, else rights revert back to you.

[feloniuspunk]

Sounds like sound advice. I have, perhaps unwisely, turned down one of these deals from a publisher who wanted me to sign over the copyrights to all my songs to them. They offered to place and promote them. They did offer a reversion clause (something like 42 months total). But during that time I could not submit to any other solicitations.I'm holding out for an actual licensing deal, wherein the person who wants the use of one of my tunes will pay me an up front licensing fee to use my song in a film or on TV or wherever, and allow me to keep all the rights to my material as well. Maybe those kind of deals are much more rare but I don't think they any more rare than any other kind of deal. I could be wrong and end up waiting for a bus that never comes. But if it does, then I'd get songwriter royalties, publisher royalties, the licensing fee and credits as well.It's like fishing. You bait your hook and wait for a nibble. You don't know what's on the end of your line until you pull your hook out of the water. It could be an old boot or a whopper. But the point is you still have to bait your hook and drop your line where you think the big fish are in the first place.

[brothersugg]

This has been so educational. I've written a song that I had recorded by a professional singer. The song has always been with intention to sell. However, I've got 12 other songs with my raspy voice singing on my new CD. I was afraid of putting the "For Sale" song on the CD because of copyright, publishing, etc. Sounds like I can release my own CD and sell it to all my friends, and still put the song on TAXI for sale to music supervisors or publishers.Right? .. Another new guy question...