How to not screw over a co-writer?

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Len911
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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by Len911 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:09 pm

Funny you should ask Len! I just bought my first MIDI keyboard this week, and my new iMac from Santa gets here on a Friday. My family is getting me Logic Pro X early for Christmas. I absolutely plan to learn to do these loops myself. What do you use?
Fantastic Eryn! I didn't intend on interfering with your collaboration! I use Cubase, however, most daws are similar in features and are fully capable. I would recommend consulting the manual and there are tons of tutorials on youtube also. You are on the right path! Your song reminded me of that particular loop with chilled cello and guitar I had recently seen, and the same company also has violin and guitar samples as well, so if you had both sample sets, you could effectively add a violin as well. Welcome to the forum!
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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by DesireInspires » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:34 pm

erynmichel wrote:
DesireInspires wrote:Write new music.
:D somehow that just feels like more effort than figuring out the business end of what to do. That also feels like avoiding the issue. Well, I’ll certainly consider it, but before I go to that extreme I think I’ll just contact the original cellist to discuss it.
You stopped making music?

There is really no issue, The old song is done. Write new music with a new co-writer.

The game moves forward at a rapid pace. No need to go back to the shadows of the past and stir up issues. Create newer and better music.

This way, no issues with the old songs come up and you have better material to pitch.

Or you can waste time and effort trying to get the old co-writer to budge. But if you aren't offering any money to the old co-writer, you have little leverage to negotiate. Don't go into any negotiation trying to be benevolent or kind or ask for a favor.

In all honesty, you already have done wrong by the co-writer. You have not talked to the co-writer to work out a deal. You put a business matter in the public without proper protocol. This is business. Act accordingly!

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by erynmichel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 pm

DesireInspires wrote:
You stopped making music?

There is really no issue, The old song is done. Write new music with a new co-writer.

The game moves forward at a rapid pace. No need to go back to the shadows of the past and stir up issues. Create newer and better music.

This way, no issues with the old songs come up and you have better material to pitch.

Or you can waste time and effort trying to get the old co-writer to budge. But if you aren't offering any money to the old co-writer, you have little leverage to negotiate. Don't go into any negotiation trying to be benevolent or kind or ask for a favor.

In all honesty, you already have done wrong by the co-writer. You have not talked to the co-writer to work out a deal. You put a business matter in the public without proper protocol. This is business. Act accordingly!
Welp, when you put it that way, I can't argue with a lick of that (and I sure appreciate you taking the time to articulate it so succinctly and with some much needed tough love). I'll get to work. Thank you!
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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by Casey H » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:35 am

I hope I read it right.
First, I'll assume that your original co-writer was given half of both master (sound recording) and composition.

Since you promised your original writer a 50/50 split, I think you should honor that forever and leave that part alone. Have the new cellist do it purely as a flat fee work for hire and make sure you get a work for hire release form signed by them. Does your original person know you are doing this? Since they own half the song, you really should have their OK first before even moving forward.

Also, will the original cellist still own half the new master? I would (personally) keep them as half on everything (composition and master) to keep things simple and reward them for their original efforts without which you probably wouldn't have a good song at all.

After it's done, get something in writing with your original writer-- a signed collab agreement that details the splits.

HTH
:D Casey

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by erynmichel » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:24 am

Casey H wrote:I hope I read it right.
First, I'll assume that your original co-writer was given half of both master (sound recording) and composition.

Since you promised your original writer a 50/50 split, I think you should honor that forever and leave that part alone. Have the new cellist do it purely as a flat fee work for hire and make sure you get a work for hire release form signed by them. Does your original person know you are doing this? Since they own half the song, you really should have their OK first before even moving forward.

Also, will the original cellist still own half the new master? I would (personally) keep them as half on everything (composition and master) to keep things simple and reward them for their original efforts without which you probably wouldn't have a good song at all.

After it's done, get something in writing with your original writer-- a signed collab agreement that details the splits.

HTH
:D Casey
That does help a whole lot, thank you Casey! Well, first, that master conversation needs to happen ASAP, since it never did (hey, cut 9-years-ago-me some slack--two kids discussing this over email WAY back in the day before a lot of these great resources existed. Our correspondence doesn't quite have that level of detail!).

We're on good terms so I can just reach out and ask, but since he grew up to be a very accomplished multi-instrumentalist, I didn't want to waste his time going into the conversation uninformed, and you have all helped so much with that. I'll reach out to inform him of the project, mention that this old sentimental song is of interest to the new cellist to work on and remaster, and see what he thinks. It's old work of his, too, so he might want the chance at it himself, or he'd welcome a refresh.

Also, it occurs to me that if we ever perform it live (as we plan to for the rest of our project), I'll want to inform my former collaborator in case he's entitled to performance royalties.

Many thanks for spelling it out this way--very thoughtful!
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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by VanderBoegh » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:54 pm

Hey Eryn, I haven't listened to the song in question yet, but just reading these comments I'm going to have to side with Desire on this one.... Just write a new song. To me (personal opinion here, of course), it sounds like a big hassle to re-work that old track and determine who owns what and what the percentage splits would be. So, if it were me, I'd just write something else. But I'm a totally emotionally detached music-maker, haha, and never really try to resurrect old songs.

As my friend and Taxi mentor James Kocian once told me at a Road Rally many years ago, your best song is always your next one!

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by Casey H » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:07 pm

VanderBoegh wrote:Hey Eryn, I haven't listened to the song in question yet, but just reading these comments I'm going to have to side with Desire on this one.... Just write a new song. To me (personal opinion here, of course), it sounds like a big hassle to re-work that old track and determine who owns what and what the percentage splits would be. So, if it were me, I'd just write something else. But I'm a totally emotionally detached music-maker, haha, and never really try to resurrect old songs.

As my friend and Taxi mentor James Kocian once told me at a Road Rally many years ago, your best song is always your next one!

~~Matt
I think everyone's situation and approach is different as far as resurrecting old tracks. I've done it a few times and ended up signing the songs with good libraries. But I'm one who holds on to songs closer (not so emotionally detached) and am not overly prolific, writing or co-writing 5-10 a year.

For example, I wrote a lot of 60's style songs years ago but the production wasn't authentic 60's as needed for Film/TV. I had the songs re-done and they are all with solid libraries now.

:D Casey

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by Tunesmith » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:38 am

Hi Eryn,

I didn't have time to read all the reptiles here but SInce the earlier cello player is 50% co writer, I would think it would be fair to 1. either split the new song with collab 3 ways (of course your co writer needs to consent) , or 2. keep the collab ast still just the 2 of you with the cellist as a WFH. Once one is a co writer, it doesn't matter what if what they contributed originally is no longer needed. I meant the whole song/piece is 50/50.

At least that is how I understand it.

Best,
Linda

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by Casey H » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 am

Tunesmith wrote: I didn't have time to read all the reptiles here...
There are reptiles here? :? :o :shock:

:lol: :lol: Casey

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Re: How to not screw over a co-writer?

Post by funsongs » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:29 am

Casey H wrote:
Tunesmith wrote: I didn't have time to read all the reptiles here...
There are reptiles here? :? :o :shock:

:lol: :lol: Casey
That's "Mister Reptile", if you please; jeepers... show a little respect!
:? :shock: :P
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