Is #419 right on this?

[cosmicdolphin]

1. Melody could be stronger
--Me: Is the melody of reference #3 really stronger than mine?

Don't focus one reference track, it may only be in there to show a production style / vibe.

2. Could have a better developmental "arc"
--Me: Is the arc of reference #3 really better than mine?

Ditto as above..always have a good developmental arc unless it says not to. If I skip around your track it all sounds pretty much the same, I can't tell whether I'm in the intro or building up toward the end as it just more or does the same thing all the way through.

3. Better production needed.

Yes the 808's are not great and the whole thing sounds somewhat muffled. Some of the synth sounds are rather cheesy to me as well

4. Song instrument sounds or samples sound dated or of a lower quality

Not sure where you are getting your sounds Tom but I think you said you hadn't spent anything on software or plugins or instruments. You need good ingredients to start with so things sound good right out the box. If you don't have those then you need really great production skills and plenty of time to get around it. If you haven't got either then you're kinda fighting a losing battle from the get go. High quality instruments are one of the best investments you can make if you want to progress in music licensing.

5. Not Broadcast Quality in context of this listing

See above

6. The beats need to be updated with more current sounds. Better overall developmental arc and stronger melody is also needed.

See above

In summary yes I agree with Screener, I do agree that the 3rd track has little melody or arc but you have to take it in the round within the context of the other tracks and the listing does say " give your Cues a developmental arc that gives the editors some options"

So if you don't then it's kind of on you not the person who chose the ref tracks

Mark

[WhiteKix]

Hey Tom,
I would have said that maybe the synth/horn lead was too bright, but I guess that wasn't an issue. The other thing I noticed now (Not before i submitted for the same listing), was that only the first reference track (The one I listened to most) had a hard distorted 808. The other tracks' 808s were a lot cleaner than the first reference track (and both of our tracks).

I didn't think your drums sound dated, but I received this feedback "You also need more current beats and a better overall mix." So, I am clearly not the best judge .

As far as the development arc, that is something I have been struggling with. The references don't seem to have much of an arc, and the listings always say "Build your Cues around a central melodic theme while adding and subtracting layers of instrumentation as they progress to create dynamics, interest, and a sense of forward movement." Which is what I think I am doing, but I guess I am missing something there. For your arc, the only suggestion I would have is at the very beginning, after the synth intro, bring in a few less of the drum sounds and add them in each few bars (but that didn't work for me, so take it with a grain of salt).

If you are interested, you can hear the song I submitted for the listing on my profile (https://www.taxi.com/members/whitekix), the song is Lost And Alone. The feedback i got on it was: Good reflective mood; Unfortunately, the guitars and the beat are not in sync. You also need more current beats and a better overall mix.; There are rhythm issues. Better production and mix needed. The could have a better development arc was also checked. Not sure if it will be helpful, but misery loves company.

Good luck in the future, as it can be hard to receive the criticism and take it to heart enough to try to improve without taking it too much to heart.

Thanks,
Scott

[funsongs]

Still, I think screeners' comments can sometimes be off.
Tom

hmmm... well... nevertheless - they are, indeed, the Gatekeepers.

[cosmicdolphin]

But more seriously, take the lead synths. This is from the TTS-1 a trifle of Oboe, Marimba and Pan Flute, each with carefully chosen parameters (attack etc.)

That explains a lot

The TTS-1 is a virtual General Midi module that came out about 15 years ago and was bundled free with Sonar 4. It sounded like crap then, and it hasn't aged well !

It's the VST equivalent of a cheap Casio keyboard you might buy your kids for Xmas. It's not a tool for anyone wanting to make broadcast quality tracks. Even if you were the best producer in the world and managed to get something decent out of it , in this game you just haven't got the time.

Take tonight for example. A Library sent out an email for a particular cover song, it arrived here about 6pm UK time. 7hrs later it was done and we've submitted it before the deadline. You need sounds you can just pull out and know they are going to work because you won't have time to mess about.

I won't say it again but you are missing a trick by only using bundled / free stuff.

Mark

[cosmicdolphin]

I won't say it again but you are missing a trick by only using bundled / free stuff.

It is starting to sink in. As you know, it can sometimes take a while with me (--> DAW). I didn't even know the TTS-1 was that old...

At least it DAW-ned on you eventually Tom

Even when it was new it sounded rubbish, I had a hardware Yamaha TG300 at the time which sounded far superior. I even got rid of that eventually when VTI's got better.

Mark

[andygabrys]

You gotta start someplace. So at least you are swinging at the pitches - keep going.

I agree with much of what Cosmic Dolphin says. Here I will respond to each of your points:

1. Melody could be stronger

The problem is with much instrumental music that is used in underscore production music in Tv is that there IS NO MELODY. Melody competes with dialogue. But THERE IS A HOOK, which could be chords, melody, rhythm, or a sound that forms the basis of the track.

If you are thinking in terms of a "melody" in the traditional sense you are always going to be disappointed.

2. Could have a better developmental "arc"

Every cue needs an ARC. An ARC means things change over time in the cue, which allows simple writing and yet sounds like a piece that goes somewhere and can support the development of a picture if needed.

There are many different kinds of arcs, but these ones are common (as are variations of the same as you can mix and match if it makes sense):

Small > continuous build > big finish
big intro > take away parts > total breakdown > big finish
intro > build to big sound > total breakdown > build to big finish.

Listen to the refs. Listen to how many elements they start out with. Listen to how often things are added. Listen to what is added. Most stuff happens for 4 or 8 bar lengths.

You piece unfortunately starts with every in and never breaks down much until around 0:39 where it breaks for a second then the beat is back in. Then everything is sort of in.

3. Better production needed.

This doesn't help as a comment. Its obvious its not in the same vibe as the ref tracks but it doesn't help you change it to suit.

You can't produce much without a good idea of where you are headed, adept use of decent sounds.

4. Song instrument sounds or samples sound dated or of a lower quality

Drum sounds are the biggest tip off that you are either in vintage land or in modern land.
808 sounds are the second thing
every other synth sound can be very malleable and you can turn a cheesy old pad into something pretty cool - for example by high and low pass filtering, adding a LFO on volume, adding reverb and delay etc, adding distortion to change the basic sound etc.

Fortunately sounds are easy to come by. There are a ton of places like this: https://offers.producerschoice.co/everything/ which sell a lot of stuff for near pennies per sound.

There is Splice. There is Noiiz. There is Echo Sound works. There are all the sellers on ADSR. They stuff is individually very cheap and instantly, without even doing more than simple volume leveling can make something sound in the zone.

5. Not Broadcast Quality in context of this listing

Again obvious. But what does this mean:

Take your track and the 3 refs. Play each one in sequence. Honestly does your track capture the same vibe? The same polish? The same era?

One thing I can say - the call and response nature of your kick and 808 sounds isn't like the vibe in the other tracks.
Its also light on the beat, and heavy on the 808 which is not like the refs.

6. The beats need to be updated with more current sounds. Better overall developmental arc and stronger melody is also needed.

Sounds already covered.

Again developmental arc is mentioned. Take all of the references. Make a list of what enters at what point. How long does it last for until it changes (gets more active or whatever) before its take out again?

Melody again is not MELODY - its a hook, its a feeling and vibe. Its not a conventional melody.

Do you agree with him/her on these points? What about the beats sounds so dated? Snare/kick/hihats/claps/sub?

The beat isn't in the same league. Analyze the three refs. Where the kick drum happens, and when its coupled to the 808 bass (or replaced by an 808 bass with a kick sample on the front - the typical Trap Kick) - its not accident. Listen to the hi-hat. Listen to the particular snare sample sound.

7. "Instrumentation feels stiff or over-quantized" -- I was a little puzzled about that one, too.

All music like this is often quantized to a degree. Some people play it by hand but they are well practiced at it so it sounds smooth and flows.

All the other stuff is quantized. The beats are made on the grid. At times a slightly swung quantization is used a la the MPC %.

So again the issue is not the quantization - its how you conceptualize the parts. They need to flow.

Oh - and your piece ends on the V chord instead of the I chord (tonic).

most Production music features:
1) tempo throughout
2) same key throughout even though there might be chord changes
3) starting at at least ending on the I (tonic chord). The idea being that an editor can take the stinger and slide it to any point in the track and end the track at that point. If you don't end on the Tonic chord sometimes this won't be possible without it sounding like a musical train-wreck and an editor will work with another track instead of yours if they feel it would be easier to work with and have as good a vibe.

Hope that helps.

P.S. - yes the first piece has a replica of the Shape of My heart nylon string guitar part played on a nylon string sample sound on a keyboard (hopefully sting got money for that) but its just like any other track with a sample (like a lot of Kanye's music). It helps that its a nice part and we always like to hear familiar music that sounds good. Its a strong place to start. If you are going to cop that aspect of the track then it better sound good as well. Otherwise don't focus on that (using something that sounds like a sample).

The real meat is the beat and the bass. That's what is putting it in the EMO trap ballpark instead of Sting or whoever.