Making significant $ with film/TV music

[Casey H]

I often see questions on the forum like: How much did you make for that placement? Can a person make significant (5 figures) money in film/TV? Can a person make a full time living with film/TV music? ...and so on...These questions have been answered on many threads and a video by Matto, but it would be great to have some of the following in one place. Members like Matto, Hummingbird, Dave, Mazz and others have given info like the following elsewhere. I welcome their suggested edits to what follows- maybe a 'sticky' can come out of this First, this doesn't include custom composing. For this, I am speaking only of tracks forwarded to music libraries. Second, I am simply repeating what I've learned from others such as the names I mentioned above. Those folks are either earning good money or on a targeted 5 year plan toward that. I am not in that category- not prolific enough. Here goes...It takes as much as 5 years (can be more) to start bringing in significant money- by significant I mean the kind that could lead you to a true career path. There is no instant lottery ticket here. You shouldn't start comparing the money spent with taxi, or any other lead source for that matter, against short term financial gain.It's a volume game. You have to be very prolific, cranking out dozens of broadcast quality tracks. Instrumentals do much better- there is a large demand for background music. Words get in the way sometimes. Not that 'songs' don't get placed, but instrumentals outnumber vocals by a huge margin. You need to work toward having a VERY large number of tracks in music libraries, working for you (e.g. being pitched). By large, I mean 100, 150 or more within those first 5 years. Every track in a library increases the odds that there will be a placement. You have to keep feeding the pipeline, by submitting as much on-target material as possible. It's a continual process. If you learn to nail what is "on-target" you can get efficient at it.With a large volume in libraries, actual placements can start- but from the time a track gets into a library until it might be placed could be anywhere from (ballpark) 6 months to 5 years. Placements bring in some license fee revenue but the "back-end" performance royalties (from PRO's such as ASCAP, BMI, etc. - TV placements) can add up to much more. However, PRO payments lag behind broadcasts by 6-9 months domestically and 1-2 years internationally. And since you get paid each time a show is broadcast, as shows are re-run over the years that follow the initial broadcast, more comes in. That's a slow process. Your PRO earnings from a single TV placement might peak years from initial placement. So if you create and maintain a large pipeline of tracks going into libraries, a steady flow of revenue can be significant a few years later. NOT to any time scale but on the over-simplified time line below, the L's represent tracks put in libraries, the P's actual placements, and the $'s some revenue from P's. Picture a repeat of this over and over- more L's, P's, $'s...LLLLLLLLLLLL--------------------P1---------------- P2------------------P3-------------------------------------------------$p1-------------------$p1$p2----------------$p1$p2$p3...Although I left out custom composing, often when you are successful with a library, there is an opportunity with them for custom work which brings in more revenue.I hope this provides some answers regarding making "real" money with film/TV tracks. Once again, I welcome comments and corrections- I am not the foremost expert here. My goal would be to create a decent 'sticky' in this Music Biz section. Casey

[bobbi]

Dec 4, 2008, 5:53am, hurowitz wrote:I often see questions on the forum like: How much did you make for that placement? Can a person make significant (5 figures) money in film/TV? Can a person make a full time living with film/TV music? ...and so on...These questions have been answered on many threads and a video by Matto, but it would be great to have some of the following in one place. Members like Matto, Hummingbird, Dave, Mazz and others have given info like the following elsewhere. I welcome their suggested edits to what follows- maybe a 'sticky' can come out of this First, this doesn't include custom composing. For this, I am speaking only of tracks forwarded to music libraries. Second, I am simply repeating what I've learned from others such as the names I mentioned above. Those folks are either earning good money or on a targeted 5 year plan toward that. I am not in that category- not prolific enough. Here goes...It takes as much as 5 years (can be more) to start bringing in significant money- by significant I mean the kind that could lead you to a true career path. There is no instant lottery ticket here. You shouldn't start comparing the money spent with taxi, or any other lead source for that matter, against short term financial gain.It's a volume game. You have to be very prolific, cranking out dozens of broadcast quality tracks. Instrumentals do much better- there is a large demand for background music. Words get in the way sometimes. Not that 'songs' don't get placed, but instrumentals outnumber vocals by a huge margin. You need to work toward having a VERY large number of tracks in music libraries, working for you (e.g. being pitched). By large, I mean 100, 150 or more within those first 5 years. Every track in a library increases the odds that there will be a placement. You have to keep feeding the pipeline, by submitting as much on-target material as possible. It's a continual process. If you learn to nail what is "on-target" you can get efficient at it.With a large volume in libraries, actual placements can start- but from the time a track gets into a library until it might be placed could be anywhere from (ballpark) 6 months to 5 years. Placements bring in some license fee revenue but the "back-end" performance royalties (from PRO's such as ASCAP, BMI, etc. - TV placements) can add up to much more. However, PRO payments lag behind broadcasts by 6-9 months domestically and 1-2 years internationally. And since you get paid each time a show is broadcast, as shows are re-run over the years that follow the initial broadcast, more comes in. That's a slow process. Your PRO earnings from a single TV placement might peak years from initial placement. So if you create and maintain a large pipeline of tracks going into libraries, a steady flow of revenue can be significant a few years later. NOT to any time scale but on the over-simplified time line below, the L's represent tracks put in libraries, the P's actual placements, and the $'s some revenue from P's. Picture a repeat of this over and over- more L's, P's, $'s...LLLLLLLLLLLL--------------------P1---------------- P2------------------P3-------------------------------------------------$p1-------------------$p1$p2----------------$p1$p2$p3...Although I left out custom composing, often when you are successful with a library, there is an opportunity with them for custom work which brings in more revenue.I hope this provides some answers regarding making "real" money with film/TV tracks. Once again, I welcome comments and corrections- I am not the foremost expert here. My goal would be to create a decent 'sticky' in this Music Biz section. CaseyHey CaseyWell that is a hard way… Making 100- 150 broad casting quality tracks cost a lot of money ..But somehow one should make a living while waiting for years getting a little money form the library…How you guys do that?How you guys do you support yourselves and your families while making these expensive demos and waiting for years to get the money from these libraries…It seems very unrealistic to me, since one should spend a lot of time and money for making tracks , trying to pitch them, and having a job for supporting yourself and your familyAm I missing something? Bobbi

[Casey H]

Hi BobbiMojo hit it on the head here. This thread is specifically about film/TV, not about pitching songs to artists. And yes, this applies mainly to people who do their own home recording (or have some other arrangement for producing music quickly and affordably).In terms of "who is making significant money with their music" as it relates to vehicles such as taxi, the overwhelming majority comes from film/TV. Artist placements and record deals are out there, but the odds much tougher. (No one should let go of their dreams, however! )...I posted this because a lot of people ask questions here about money earned vs. taxi membership fees and other expenses. Matt, Vikki, Mazz, Dave W, and others have often explained that it is a long term game, you need a 5 year plan, etc. I thought it might be good to have that explanation in one place here on Music Biz. The thread that Vikki posted a link to, one of the best ever on these boards , answers the questions as to where the actual money comes from a particular placement is made in film/TV.... MUST reading... I mentioned somewhere that I made around $200 from some recent placements this past year. Over the next few years, I'll probably see $200-$300 more on those, maybe more. If one compares the cost of something like taxi, to the income from just a few placements, they aren't seeing the real picture. With rare exception, no one is going to make a living or support their family on a few placements. The point that the successful film/TV music writers will tell you is it's a numbers game. You have to multiply those few placements by a big N, with money trickling in over a period of years, some paying more, some less.I believe there is a link somewhere on taxi.com to Matt's video on exactly this subject. I'll take a look for it.If your goal is getting a hit song cut or a label deal as a band or artist, this doesn't apply UNLESS you decide to make parallel effort to bring in income while you continue working towards that goal. Casey

[Casey H]

Dec 5, 2008, 6:18am, mojobone wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FguwMMsDZA There are five parts, all are recommended.Thanks Mojo!! This says it the best... from the horse's mouth (not calling matto a horse, LOL )

[hummingbird]

Dec 5, 2008, 2:17am, bobbi wrote:Well that is a hard way… Making 100- 150 broad casting quality tracks cost a lot of money ..But somehow one should make a living while waiting for years getting a little money form the library…How you guys do that?How you guys do you support yourselves and your families while making these expensive demos and waiting for years to get the money from these libraries…It seems very unrealistic to me, since one should spend a lot of time and money for making tracks , trying to pitch them, and having a job for supporting yourself and your familyAm I missing something? BobbiIf you watch the Matt Hirt videos, you will understand. Matt tells you exactly how he came to be earning in excess of $50,000 US per year by placing his music with libraries and publishers for use in film/tv -- grow your composing skills, have the right tools to do the job - focus on your strengths, create a 'niche' (not that you can't do other things) - produce broadcast quality tracks & pitch 'em- target your submissions, get forwards, followed by deals... thereby creating relationships with libraries/publishers... and that niche thing comes into play here... as they get to know you & your music, you might become a 'go to composer' for them- understand it's a long term commitment -- like it would be if you started ANY business.I totally, totally understand why someone asks the question 'how much do I have to invest in time & money before it pays off', and the problem is, no one can truly answer that for you. But in ANY business plan, it's expected that you will not make a profit for at least three years.Matto showed me his credits at the 2007 Rally. They were listed in chronological order. Year one to three... he had a couple of placements. Year four... 4 or 5. Year five? Wow, something exploded... and he had significant credits from then on. What did I say after reading that? I said "if you'd given up in the first four years, you never would be making a living doing this now".My business plan consists of:- acquiring the tools to create & produce broadcast quality music- learning how to use those tools effectively- work consistently to grow my knowledge of composition- create 200 well-composed, broadcast quality instrumental cues over a two year period, and get them signed.- understand that (for example), the forward of today is the deal of tomorrow... and is the income of the day after that- continue to pay it forward by sharing what I've learned with others on the path-H

[matto]

Dec 5, 2008, 2:17am, bobbi wrote:Well that is a hard way… Making 100- 150 broad casting quality tracks cost a lot of money ..But somehow one should make a living while waiting for years getting a little money form the library…How you guys do that?How you guys do you support yourselves and your families while making these expensive demos and waiting for years to get the money from these libraries…It seems very unrealistic to me, since one should spend a lot of time and money for making tracks , trying to pitch them, and having a job for supporting yourself and your familyAm I missing something? BobbiHi Bobbi,It's true that this thread is about making a living thru film/tv placements only. The exact mechanisms are different for other parts of the business.However, there is an underlying truth that applies to all aspects of the music business, whether you are an artist trying to get a record deal, a songwriter aspiring towards placing your songs with signed artists, a composer who's goal is to score Hollywood movies, or someone who is trying to make a living with film/tv placements as described in this thread:You need to be prepared to be in it for the long haul. For most people, it will take years to become successful. That's a simple fact.So how do you do it? How can you afford to do it?Well, you need a "day job" that will pay the bills while you pursue your dream, there's really no other way (well there are other ways but they aren't feasible for most people...).As far as the particular path of placing music in film/tv, as others have pointed out it's only a feasible pursuit if you can produce your own broadcast quality tracks. This has become a lot easier and cheaper with the advent of low coast, high quality digital audio workstation programs that run on a computer, that's why more people are able to pursue these opportunities.Of course, if you don't have the ability to produce tracks yourself, there's always the possibility of collaborating with someone who does.In your "demo" post, Casey mentioned that he heard some of your music and was quite impressed. Well, if you have the talent, it should be fairly easy to attract collaborators who have their own studios...even right here on this very board...HTH,matto

[Casey H]

Dec 5, 2008, 8:05am, anne wrote:TV/FILM music in easy bullet point form:it is a long term game, you need a 5 year planThe point that the successful film/TV music writers will tell you is it's a numbers game. If one compares the cost of something like taxi, to the income from just a few placements, they aren't seeing the real picture.Perfect bullet summary!

[davewalton]

Dec 23, 2008, 2:03pm, daveleopard wrote:My problem seems to be in writing enough quality songs in a short time period. I don't think I could ever write 100 or even 50 songs in a year. I obsess too much on a song and wind up spending weeks tweaking it.Better to write a small quantity of quality songs than a large quantity of average songs. As for tweaking a song to death... probably a common ailement... it's something I struggle with too.Passing a track along to the forum or to other music friends (who's opinions you trust) can help in that process. If they give it the thumbs up... then move on to the next track. There's always time to apply that cool idea tweak to the next track.

[jaredjones]

I'm Jared Jones, soon to be new member of Taxi, and owner of my own music publishing and licensing label. Oh yeah, songwriter obviously. My producer/co-owner and I focus primarily on the R&B/Pop genre. In the last few years, it has been, and remains a goal to get major cuts with major artists. I've written for a Uk artist who's release should be out this year, and will continue writing for other UK artists. But as far as money goes...music licensing is where it's at. A lot of my peers in the R&B realm are only focused on major album cuts, and don't realize how lucrative music licensing can be.So my producer and I's main focus now, is music licensing. We are blessed to both own personal studios where we can write, record, mix, and master within a day. Currently, we license through a third party music licensor, *COMPANY NAME WITHHELD*, in New York. I've received two placements from them and have received ASCAP royalties. After running a few numbers based on the number of songs I had placed, compared with the number of songs I had available within that time, 2 out of every 7 songs I submit will be placed. Based on this math, and the money I make from that agreement (25% writers share, no upfront money unless it's a commercial or non-national broadcast), we will need to place 250 songs in order to make six-figures. Doable, absolutely, but over time. So we continue to expand our outlets, because remember, that is just for *COMPANY NAME WITHHELD*. We also license through *COMPANY NAME WITHHELD*, and direct licensing (which takes the most work). With the addition of Taxi, we could definitely see six figures every year, within the next three or four years. But it takes writing everyday, and turning everything into a song.I am not the type of person to write, and not try and get it placed. I won't even take the time to write it if I know it won't be good. So you have to find a formula that works for you. The first song I had placed on CBS's "The Young and The Restless". That song was recorded in my college dorm when I was 19. (I'm turning 23 this Feb 14). My main formula is have my producer compose a hot track, and write the lyrics and melody. Every now and again, like yesterday, I will come up with a lyric idea, melody, and leave it on his voice mail, and he will compose the track before I get out of work. So like I said, I'm blessed. I understand that most people don't have the quick turnaround ability as I do, but like Mark Kaufman says above this post...build a volume of songs. Don't sit and critique it..let others do that. Eventually, you will realize just how many songs you can create, pitch, and get placed.Remember how many times the Beatles were passed by record labels...same deal with songs. Every song has a home, even if you think it sucks. And yeah, it may take some more work to make it a great song. But don't try to write a great song...just let it happen. How? Just write what you love to write about. Don't make this seem like work. Just write, record, get it mixed, mastered (find someone to do a collection of songs for cheap, or learn how to do it yourself), and place. That's the formula. And do it until you can leave your day job.I said I'm 23 this coming Saturday...I will be making six-figures by 28. Not because I'm good, but because I won't stop until it happens. God Bless You. Look me up, or hit me up at www.speakezmusic.com. I hope to talk to many of you soon, and be a regular poster.- Jared Jones

[Casey H]

Jun 29, 2009, 1:15pm, jude3 wrote:I guess I can't keep silent any longer.I am temped to look up my very first posts on this forum. I asked very similar questions. And I drilled people like Matto pretty hard. Sometimes to the point where they did not like me. (He still ignores me at the road ralley) But I too wanted to make sure there was money before I put my time in. I'm too old to waste my time.This July will be the start of my third year with Taxi of my 10 year goal. The goal is to make at least a part time living off music, in particular royalties. I was in the music business years ago but just recently got back in.Well, after two years, I signed my 5th or 6th (forget which) contract with a music library today. Three of them are huge. One has my music placed and I should see good money from it. Like about $6000. I think the biggest and most important advice came from Matto. It takes time and you better have a long range plan and you better work at it every day or at least every week no excuses.I accused Matto of being lucky. Well, after two years of doing it myself I will say I MIGHT be wrong. hahaha yeah, might be, because I still think there is some involved. But, you darn sure aint gonna get anywhere if you dont do it on a daily basis. It has to be your job in order to get paid. If it aint your job then you aint gonna get paid. Simple as that!As for money, I made some. Not very much but more is coming. Royalties take forever to come in. Once you make contact with the bigger libraries you know it's coming. And once you make contact you get to keep filling those libraries with your music. So I am sure it is a matter of time. And yes, some luck.Enough of my rambling. Hope I helped someone. People here helped me so I want to pass it on if I can.Thanks Mazz, Matto and Dave.Hey Jude This is awesome to read! I hope you'll let taxi know about your placements too. We are very lucky to have people like matto, dave , mazz, vikki, and others who offer so much help and advice. That's one of the reasons I think this is the best music forum out there. Congrats on the placements!! I hope to see you at the rally in November! Casey