Mixing Madness

with industry Pro, Nick Batzdorf

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Mixing Madness

Post by guest4254 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:06 am

Hey All,

I don't know if my hearing has changed over the years or not, but I'm having trouble getting good mixes these days. It's been one of the main reasons for returned listings. What I've been finding (hearing) more now than in the past, is that while my mixes sound great in my studio monitors (JBL LSR4300), when I listen to them in my car, they sound like crap! I recently got a pair of Presonus monitors (ERIS E3.5) and while they help a tad with a tweak here and there (going back and forth between both monitors), I'm still not getting a similar kick butt mix that I'm hearing in my studio. I can still use my old stereo system upstairs, but that means burning a CD, and the results are similarly disappointing.
One of the things that I'm having a tough time getting used to are all the newer types of EQ. In the past I would use a pretty standard 30 band multi EQ. (I once used Adobe Audition 3, until Adobe stopped supporting it, but their 30 band EQ worked great) For me it was the easiest thing to just raise or lower a band or 2, as opposed to all the options of the newer EQs. I use Presonus Studio One 4, which comes with a few options, and also have a good amount of EQ options from the many IZotope apps...actually too many options.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what you kind folks do to get a good mix? And if anyone could recommend a good simple 30 band multi EQ, Or, is there any way to transfer the EQ that came with Adobe Audition to my Presonus DAW (though I find that highly unlikely)

Thanks,
Harry

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by Telefunkin » Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:31 am

Lots of things to consider here...
- get a hearing check
- 3.5" monitors have little low end, so don't expect to get the low end right if you can't hear it, but don't run out to buy a sub either! :)
- are they optimally placed?
- is your room treated or does it have serious problems (nodes/standing waves/flutter echoes)?
- do you also check mixes on headphones or alternative monitors?
- have you tried things like MixChecker plugin?
- are you referencing your tracks (A/B-ing) against commercially released music? (check out the Reference plugin from Mastering the Mix)
- have you tried EQ matching options on some plugins? (not always the best thing but might get you closer sometimes)
- have you used tools like Master Assistant and Tonal Balance in Ozone, or Gullfoss? (again, not necessarily the final solution but can help)

You can find out more about these things using Google. My guess would be that you'll get the most mileage from spending more time referencing your mixes against commercial releases of similar music styles.
Finally, this just came in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m6OV5YxTJo
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by guest4254 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:40 pm

Hey Telefunkin, thanks for the quick reply:

I don't doubt that I have some hearing loss, that's always been in the back of my mind, but then I have to wonder why I can hear the big difference between my studio and car/stereo system mixes, if my ears were THAT bad. '
My JBL's also have the LSR 4312 sub woofer, which have been sonically analyzed to fit my room, and placed in accordance with a JBL tech.
The walls of my room are basically covered with eggshell type foam, so it's pretty dead sounding in here.
As I mentioned, I do check my mixes with the Presonus studio monitors I recently picked up (and yes, I use 2 different types of headphones, Grado 225, and Audio-Technica ATH-M60x)

I just downloaded a free version of MixChecker. I've never heard of it, and am hoping that it may be the silver bullet I need, or at least part of it.
I could be doing more A/B referencing, so that may be another tool that I don't use as much as I should.
I'll have to check my Ozone plugins to see if there is an EQ match option....sometimes I think the plugins take more time trying to figure out, than they're worth, but that's another story that I won't get into right now.

I sometimes wonder, if I took a Mastering App, and used it on individual tracks, how that would affect things...probably not well, but I'm trying to look at things outside the box, or sideways, should I say...

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by Cameloide » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:12 pm

guest4254 wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:40 pm
Audio-Technica ATH-M60x)
If these are similar to the ATH-M50x's, than spending more time eq'ing with these on as opposed to your monitors might really help. They made a huge difference for me, especially when it comes to getting the low end cleaned up and consistent. I think the modern eq's with the frequency analyzers (like the Fab Filter pro Q3) are way easier to learn with than older eq's. Of course you don't want to rely on your eyes, but it'll help get you in the ballpark faster.

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by lesmac » Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:37 pm

The walls of my room are basically covered with eggshell type foam
It's a no-no. You are just reducing some really bright frequencies [in your room], so you are probably over compensating in that department.

Below are some thoughts based on my own limited experience, I hope they are not too stream of consciousness and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to suck eggs. :lol:

My initial thoughts to your post is that you may be monitoring at a consistently moderate to high level where things sound exciting and our ears naturally compress. Getting the vibe at low volume is key and it is usually easier to balance things like snare and vocals at a whisper level. Switching between different monitors at different levels is best practice.

I saw online an opinion from a mastering engineer that the major problems he found with mixes he received was trouble in the low end and therefore skewed mixes resulting from this.

With that in mind a stable low end is most important in a mix because the bass takes up so much energy.
When tracking I don't usually drop bass in till after guitars or mid range instruments are laid down.
Some options for controlling bass:
Split the bass track in to two channels and put a low pass on one at 200Hz with a steep cut and compress the hell out of it, then hi-pass the other at the same frequency. Ala https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECRx4WF3pcc
You could just put a dynamic EQ on your bass track and key in on the low end for a similar result. Putting an expander/limiter on the bass track as well helps to keep it stable too.
Then you could do this, not absolutely necessary but a good trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECRx4WF3pcc
Leave a pocket in the bass at around 60Hz for the kick. A dynamic EQ side chained from the kick is probably a better option than a straight EQ cut on the bass.

Test your low end against reference tracks by putting a low pass filter on the master bus or on your monitors's mixer and listen only to the low end using your sub. You need to check your bass on small monitors. Harmonics generators [distortion] help the bass to translate to small speakers better than boosting EQ.

You also need to find the "headroom" of your room by playing pink noise through your monitors and using a spectrum analyser app on your phone at the listening position. You have used room analysis to calibrate your sub but this will also give an indication of what level your room starts colouring your audio. This gives you a guide as to what level you can safely monitor at. Again you can get a decibel meter app on your phone.

When tracking it can be a good idea to not immediately pan tracks. That way you can choose tones that don't trample on one another right at source. Listening on one speaker in mono can aid in making EQ decisions.
No doubt the dynamic EQs are great tools that can help control problem frequencies when they occur.

Using your DAW's automation is really important. You can get many levels of automation through various methods of routing or automating plugin parameters. Think of the sound field as a stage full of actors. How many can you listen to at once, are they singing the same tune etc. If audio is playing and you can't really hear it or "feeling' it is not important then cut it out altogether until it has something valid to say. Clearing the dross out of the mix gives more impact.

Another concept for a better mix is to think of material with transients= drums or instruments with fast attacks, as space definers. The impact of drums can be lost if its of other elements have heaps of reverbs and delays that drown out the drum's time based FX.

The last thing I'd say is bounce around from track to track so that you don't end up down a rabbit hole. You can lose a whole day persisting with one track thinking you have made it great only to listen the next day and go "what a pile of $#!t"! So take frequent breaks to rest your ears and try and make it sound great at a relative low volume on a little speaker. Then after all your hard work sit back and crank it on your bigger speakers. :D

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by cosmicdolphin » Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:52 am

Mixes that don't travel are generally room based issues. Or sometimes equipment faults , I once diagnosed an out of phase snare in a mix and the guy would not believe me until he got all his gear checked and a hardware compressor had been wired up incorrectly inside. So you never know.

I agree massively with Lesmac that covering the walls with that type of foam is going to kill the high end that you hear in the room and you may be comensating for it ( on top of any HF hearing loss that natually happens as we age )

I also notice those JBL monitors have built in rom corrrection EQ so I think it's worth investigating they are set up correctly ( especially if you covered the walls with foam since they were initially calibrated )

The other best advice is as others have said, reference -reference - reference. Constantly A/B your mix with one or more of your references that's similar, actually pull it into your DAW or use something like Magic A/B

If you can , use other speakers connected to you audio interface or via a switchbox so you can change perspective at the push of a button. I use an old boombox and a mono Avantone mixcube and they each tell me how my mix will sound on very differnt playback systems with leaving my seat. Or you can use the Mixchecker type software to emulate this but I don't think anything beats the real thing.

Another good way to check is to use sometihng is use Izotope Tonal Balance Control so you can visually see if you 're in the ballpark or not.

Mark

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by guest4254 » Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

@lesmac and @cosmicdolphin

Overall some sage advice there:

I really don't turn my speakers up very much when mixing, unless I'm looking for a different perspective....and there's no one else home....but that's pretty rare.
I've had the eggshell foam on my walls since day one, and have recalibrated my JBL's several times since (when I move things around, for instance) And I'm still not convinced that the foam is a big part of the problem, as I've been listening to more reference tracks (today especially) and they sound great.

Last night I began looking at different possibilities, and I recalled using a spectrum analyzer that came with my old Adobe Audition DAW. I wanted to find something similar, and came up with a Voxengo Span analyzer...a free plugin...Somewhere between messing with it, and going back and forth between reference tracks, I was really able to hear a difference. My stuff sounded pretty dull overall, and some tweaking made a difference.

I still have a ways to go, but with all the great advice from you kind folks, I look to be on the right track. The down side is that now I have to learn to use some new programs, and @telefunkin, I downloaded Mix Checker, but have been unable to get it to show up in Studio One. I did some searching and of course, some Studio One people have had the same issue. One of the suggestions was to uninstall and re-install Studio One, which I'm a bit nervous about doing. It seems that whenever I try something that drastic, other bad things come along and suddenly other programs stop working....It's a murphy's law thing with me, so unless there's a better way to get it to work on my system (and I'd really really LOVE to get it to work) I'm just going to hold off, at least for now.

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by guest4254 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:52 pm

Here's another thought that just popped into my head, regarding DAW's.

Why doesn't each channel have a Treble, Mid, Bass knob, like every physical mixing board I've ever used in the past?
For me, it was one of the simplest things to do, while listening back to a track/mix. Then when the real mixing would begin, that's when a 30 band graphic EQ would come in, to tweak an instrument if needed.

Wish there was a way to add that to each channel...would love to make that request to the powers that be at Presonus...

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by Telefunkin » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:10 pm

guest4254 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:52 pm
Here's another thought that just popped into my head, regarding DAW's.

Why doesn't each channel have a Treble, Mid, Bass knob, like every physical mixing board I've ever used in the past?
For me, it was one of the simplest things to do, while listening back to a track/mix. Then when the real mixing would begin, that's when a 30 band graphic EQ would come in, to tweak an instrument if needed.

Wish there was a way to add that to each channel...would love to make that request to the powers that be at Presonus...
Are you sure it doesn't? I don't use Studio One but this suggests you get a comprehensive stock EQ plugin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28Qi5BIUFE
In Cubase, for example, there's EQ (plus all the other basic channel requirements) built-in to every track, and you can have the EQ gui analog style or graphical. I'd be surprised if there isn't something similar in Studio One. However, if there's nothing that suits you, you can certainly get just about style of EQ you fancy. There's loads of SSL channel emulations for example if you prefer that to what Presonus provide....
https://bit.ly/3JRfUqx
31 band EQ? Here's one for free...
https://plugins4free.com/plugin/2751/
With a DAW you've really got just about every possibility you can imagine.
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Mixing Madness

Post by guest4254 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:37 pm

Yes, my DAW has everything imaginable, except for one simple knob for each...Treble, Mid Hi, Mid Low, Bass, like my old mixing console.

The pro EQ comes with an extra 3 settings for each of those, and if I was say 20 years younger and not working some weeks 70-90 hours on my day/night job, I might have more time to learn what each extra knob does. Not only that, but since I work alone, I'm constantly re-learning all the other programs that come with a DAW, drums, Melodyne etc, not to mention finding time to practice my guitar, bass, keyboards, and so when it comes time to mix down some music, 3 months later, my brain would have a much easier time with just 1 simple knob for each Hi, Mid, Low frequency. My ADHD doesn't help either, but that's another story.

Thank you Telefunkin, for the link to the free graphic EQ, I hope to download that later tonite, if time permits...I'm sure it will simplify things for me.

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