Mixing Question - Levels

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Keithm
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Mixing Question - Levels

Post by Keithm » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:34 pm

Hi,
I notice a pattern when mixing (in the box) and wanted to see if others do the same or if I'm doing something wrong.
In order to prevent my master from clipping, I find I'm turning my tracks way down, often -10 to -18 dbs. When combined together, I'm getting my master fairly close to 0db however. Is this OK to be turning tracks down this much? I can't help but think it affects the sound quality. And then on the other end of the mix, I'm boosting with a limiter etc. But I can't see any way to avoid this without clipping on the master?
Advice? or is this normal?
Thanks

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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by Len911 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:18 pm

Keith, I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but if you have to turn your tracks down -10 to -18 to get close to 0 db, then you are already clipping. I don't think that is what you are saying.
If you are ready to master your final stereo mix, the ideal is to use the least compression for the style you wish to master. 0 db is the absolute maximum before clipping. If the meters are jumping around and you have 10-15 db between the average and loudest signal, that means you have good dynamic range, ala classical. If they are only moving a few db's that means you don't have but little dynamics, and is probably punk or metal rock. If you have presets on your mastering limiter, that is a good place to start, otherwise you will have to manually set the thresholds and gains. I wouldn't use 0db as a target, -2 would be much better. Another thing, if you don't have a good mix to begin with, you are probably going to have problems. In other words, if you need some compression to control the drum transients, do it before you actually mix it, and don't try to fix it in the mastering stage, as you will ruin everything else trying to control the wayward drums. In fact, if you use a vst instrument for drums, there are such things as midi compressors, one is included in cubase, where you compress the midi info, and not the sample itself, so there are no audio artifacts of over compression. If you recorded a vocal, you use compression to fit it in the mix, again, before you get to your final mix, and certainly before the "master" mix. Compression is used to smooth and fit everything together, the mastering brings everything up where you can hear it comfortably. Compression as a sound effect, is usually undesirable, as a tool it is very useful. Ok, these are a few things I have learned, but don't always practice,lol!
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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by ernstinen » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:00 am

Hey Keith! I'm an old analog guy who used to push things to the limit. Now that I've been working with ProTools and the Digi002 mixer, I find it's really similar to an analog mixer. I get the track recorded as close to 0db as possible, but when mixing, I'm pushing up and pulling down faders on individual tracks to make a good mix. I'm no techie by any means, but if a track is too loud in the mix, I see no reason not to pull it down.

Where with analog you can go maybe +5 on your mix, the combination of tracks in digital may tip into the red a tad, but certainly not +5 db.... I hope I'm understanding you correctly --- you probably already know this stuff! Personally, I go into an Alesis Masterlink, tipping into the red, and THEN slightly compress the master so that 0 db is the max. Makes sense? I didn't think so! :lol:

I'll leave this topic to someone who is more technically inclined than I am...

Ern 8-) :)

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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by mojobone » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:13 am

I notice a similar phenomenon when I have lots of tracks. It's really not necessary to record everything as close to OdBFS as possible when working in a digital system; as long as you're taking good care of your signal-to-noise ratio before the sound hits a converter, you can leave yourself some more headroom, particularly at greater bit depths and sample rates. (24-bit, 48kHz and up, but 24 bits provide plenty of dynamic range, even at 44.1 kHz) It's also a good idea to consult a spectrometer; you may have too much energy in one part of the frequency spectrum, eating up all your headroom. When you're trying to shoehorn in dozens of parts, each part has to have its own space to sit in, you need to use subtractive EQ to ruthlessly trim away all the energy that doesn't contribute/drive your mix. Acoustic guitars are a typical example; thick and chunky is what you want for a simple guitar/vocal performance, but add a fat kick drum, a wide snare, a tubby bass and some seam-splitting Hammond B3, and something has to give. Try this experiment; take a thin pick and scrape the strings as close as possible to the bridge of an acoustic guitar, while holding down a chord. What you'll hear is about all the guitar you'll ever need in a busy mix; you can do the same thing with subtractive EQ, to trim the fat.
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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by cardell » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:11 am

mojobone wrote:Acoustic guitars are a typical example; thick and chunky is what you want for a simple guitar/vocal performance, but add a fat kick drum, a wide snare, a tubby bass and some seam-splitting Hammond B3, and something has to give.
Yes, so true.

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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by mazz » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:40 am

I don't think there's any issues with pulling the tracks down prior to mixing. If you take an "analog" perspective and follow Bob Katz, you can make -18 dbfs (digital level meter) the same conceptually as 0dbvu (analog reference) and then you'll have 18 db of headroom for your mix, which should translate to a more dynamic mix. Then you can slap on limiters, maximizers, whatever you want to do to make the mix squeezed and squashed according to modern tastes. But I think it's better to start with a nice dynamic mix rather than pushing the levels to the top during the mixing stage, at least the early stages. I've actually been doing this lately even with some dance type tracks I've been producing and by the time the meters are bouncing around near 0dbfs, the mixes sound better because I've not been doing the "headroom dance" while mixing.

A big mistake I've seen folks make, myself included, is to treat the digital peak meters we are all familiar with as if they were analog meters, because they don't really show you the average level. So the tendency to mix up towards 0dbfs is an exercise in robbing the system of all of it's headroom. With 24bit audio, it doesn't seem to be an issue to use -18 as a reference.

So enjoy that headroom and mix without the limiting, etc., put it on after you have the mix well balanced and are ready to "finish" it.

Cheers!

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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by mojobone » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:17 am

It's a little faster to just mix into the buss compressor, as long as you don't try to get too jiggy with it. I strap one on about halfway through a mix, cuz I know it'll change the mix balance, and I'll have to revisit the levels. I think everybody should do it the "Mazz" way first, though, until you know beforehand what your peak to average (crest factor) will need to be, for a given style. You still need to resist the urge to peak those meters, and I use a meter that reads peak and average on the same scale anytime I'm adjusting the crest factor for any reason. You also need good monitors, or you won't be able to tell when you're distorting or losing too much transient 'punch'. Don't forget; the end user has a volume knob, she'll make it loud enough to suit.
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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by mazz » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:28 am

I found one of these on ebay (with 2 meters, not four): http://www.logitekaudio.com/uvmeter.html

It shows peak and average, the difference between the two is, as mojo mentions, the crest factor. Basically with a digital meter that only reads peak, one is totally blind to the average levels (crest factor). It's not that you would need a meter like this, but it sure helps to have a visual aid when setting things like compression and limiting, because compression really works on the average level. Of course, the ear is the final arbiter, but there's a reason why these types of meters are used, particularly in broadcast. It's certainly been a big help to me in my mixes ever since I picked it up. There are plugin versions of these things as well.

Another thing I've been doing lately to gain back some headroom is to put a highpass filter on anything with low frequencies in it, particularly stuff that doesn't really contribute to the bottom end of the mix, but also on bass and drums. I set the frequency depending on the function of the track, for instance, around 20 hz maybe for drums and bass but maybe even up to 100 or 120 for something that has lows but those lows might just be muddying up the mix. Basically a bus compressor will "see" or "hear" those frequencies and respond to them, even if they aren't really adding anything to the music and also those frequencies have a lot of energy that will take up headroom, compressor or not.

There's always so much to learn about this stuff!!
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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by jdhogg » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:46 pm

keith

there is nothing wrong with having some levels set low.

record at 24bits and aim for -6db peak.

When mixing put a limiter on you mix buss with a threshold -1db and a cieling of 0db.

As you mix keep checking that you are not limiting by more that a few db and do not up the o/p gain.

When you feel you have the mix together then add buss compression (have a look at rob chiarelli post) and then adjust levels or the comp to get the sound you want.

Some mix with a buss comp from the start (more dance/electro) some dont....its just what works for you.

Most daws have peak and rms metering.

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Re: Mixing Question - Levels

Post by jdhogg » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:06 pm

;)
mazz you need to be more ruthless.

30hz hpf on drums and bass.

sometimes 80-100hz on bass if competing

upto 400hz to clear mud.

you most probably know this but for any that dont.

you need to understand how the sidechain works in a compressor because that is one of the real secrets of a pro sound.
you can actually filter the sidechain so that the gain reduction is less effected by the frequencies in the control signal which are filtered out. eg filter out the bass so that is not triggering the gain reduction but the top end is.
This comp sidechain can also be fed from other tracks eg use a feed from the kick as a sidechain input to the bass comp to pull down momentarily the bass to let the initial whack of the kick through.

in reaper this routing is easy....some others a little trickier?

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