My Young Prodigee-Make/Break Situation

[hummingbird]

Steve said it better than I did. You have to work WITH the mother. The suggestion of redefining your role in this is a good one. And I have say, that even I, a trained professional of 17 years, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to "sing 9 hrs straight with only a lunch break on the first day, and then sing 12 hrs straight with only ONE lunch break the 2nd day". In the opera, equity puts limits on how long singers can sing without a break, and you far exceeded the limits of the pros. I agree with Steve, that kind of schedule is fueling the Mom's fire. I'm not saying the Mother is 'right' to be grandstanding in front of audiences & cancelling gigs... but even you said, after telling us how long she sang for... "I KNOW that's bad". Perhaps a better idea would be to sit down with the Mom and daughter and ask for specific details on what is acceptable. For a high school student to be singing 3 big gigs a week - that's a lot of pressure, especially if they are late nights. Sit down and plan the singer's schedule for the next year and get the Mom to sign off on it. Make her part of the planning process. Again, you may need a trained professional to mediate because it sounds as though the situation is not good and the two of you aren't communicating.H

[stevehacker]

Ok...Some of you guys have perhaps got the wrong idea. I do INDEED have the best interest of the girl in mind. MAKE NO MISTAKE: I have no need to cling to her as some of you are implying. I have several clients that have gone on to very successful music careers. Those who stick with me simply end up on top. I have a proven track record...period...In this particular case, to see the girl's career go south because of a misguided parent would be nothing short of a crime...end of story.To address anothe concern, yes: IT's WHAT SHE WANTS, and she is at odds with her mother sometimes. To "songwriter" who is worried about "burn-out". She is a member of the highschool marching band, she does local theater, she is in a dance troupe. She has "sleep-overs" every week with her girl friends - she's the most popular kid in school, BUT, SHE is the one complaining about burning out over her parents forcing her into the "normal box". She WANTS to make music and perform. She's being forced to split her interests from OUTSIDE and be a "normal" teen, which she is not. This particular girl is 16 going on 35, and she relates much better to adults than to her peers. Hey, that's not my doing. It's just the way she is. I cannot help it if she does not relate to other 16 year olds. Her boyfriend incidentally (who is also a musician) is 21. That also is not my doing, but it underscores her maturity, and perhaps underscores her parents' logic in some areas and total LACK of logic in other areas.To Steve Gilbert about me needlessly hanging on or "replacing myself". To do so at this point in time would mean the instant and immediate end of the girl's musical life. We live in an extremely isolated and rural area (usually big shows/events mean long drives). There is NO ONE else who does what I do. I PLAY ALL those roles - teacher, manager, musician, producer, etc., because there is simply no one else within a 200 mile radius who can do quite what I do, and the family WILL NOT move because of very cemented careers for both parents. She will not get to move until she goes off to college or finds her way in Nashville or similar. Believe me, at that time it WILL BE ME "pushing her out of the nest". I've done that for 25+ years now...one more makes no difference.Some of you are making this deeper than it needs to be I think. This boils down to (1) the mother not knowing what the voice is capable of, and (2) her needing to feel in control, and incidentally, the 2 day studio vocal marathon WAS NOT MY SCHEDULING! It was the mother's *BUDGET* that dictated such scheduling. Talk about contradictions. She'll pull her daughter off the stage after a RELAXING 2 hr set, but let her sing 21 hrs across two days in the studio. I'm not stupid folks. I know what a voice can and cannot do. When thousands of hard-earned dollars are on the line, even an over protective mother will put her own concerns aside. Logic does not always prevail with this woman. Actually almost never. Hmmm the word "menopause" is beginning to come to mind...oops...sorry folks...couldn't resist You guys need to realize that I have watched this girl break down and cry because she wants to sing and play and her parents are pushing her to do more "normal" things like go to one more sleep-over with other kids she can't even stand most of the time. She's a STRAIGHT "A" student by the way, and has won EVERY honor known to man. The girl was put here to make music, WANTS TO DO SO, is damn good at it, and the only time she's NOT doing it is when she's been told she can't. In her own words, "It's the life she lives for". I can't count the number of times I have heard her in debate with her mother about wanting to go ahead and finish up highschool as a "home schooler" so that she can be more devoted to music. I only bring all this up to underscore that she is NOT BEING FORCED to do anything in music. She is being FORCED AWAY kicking and screaming sometimes. I'm not going to sit here and make the parents concerns wrong or say that the kid shouldn't be normal. Of course she should. I have raised 3 kids of my own and done quite well, thank you very much. But when a mother is losing her mind over PERCEIVED damage that is NOT happening, something has to be done, because the girl will pay the ultimate price, and guess who will be resented ultimately. She will resent her mother later in life. My wife went through exactly this as a child. Great voice, great potential - a promising career ahead of her. Because her father played in a band, he said "no daughter of mine will ever be a musician"...The resentment never fully healed. My wife, now 40, can't sing, can't play and is quite unhappy with herself. She speaks to her parents maybe twice a year. IF THE MUSIC IS INSIDE FOLKS, YOU HAVE TO YIELD TO IT! I have learned one CANNOT go against the grain of who they are. Doing so creates unhappiness, which creates disease. I spoke with a pyschologist friend of mine about this earlier today and he brought up something I hadn't even though of (although someone above in a previous post almost hit on it earlier): The fact that eventually the girl will start CREATING HER OWN VOCAL PROBLEMS because it's "what's expected". In other words if preached to long enough by her parents that damage is being done to her voice, she will begin to "oblige" those physiological conditions in her body, and eventually, indeed she will CREATE her vocal damage as prescribed and mandated by her parents. After all, thoughts are indeed "things".Trust me guys, I am not "clinging" to someone else's musical dream. I have a writing deal, several albums on the shelves, and a whole "brood" of successful students in the music industry to remind me how well I'm doing. I just don't want to see this girl(s) (parents) blow a great thing.Hope that clears some things up...Steve

[jeffe]

Quote:Ok...Some of you guys have perhaps got the wrong idea. I do INDEED have the best interest of the girl in mind. MAKE NO MISTAKE: I have no need to cling to her as some of you are implying. I have several clients that have gone on to very successful music careers. Those who stick with me simply end up on top. I have a proven track record...period...In this particular case, to see the girl's career go south because of a misguided parent would be nothing short of a crime...end of story.To address anothe concern, yes: IT's WHAT SHE WANTS, and she is at odds with her mother sometimes. To "songwriter" who is worried about "burn-out". She is a member of the highschool marching band, she does local theater, she is in a dance troupe. She has "sleep-overs" every week with her girl friends - she's the most popular kid in school, BUT, SHE is the one complaining about burning out over her parents forcing her into the "normal box". She WANTS to make music and perform. She's being forced to split her interests from OUTSIDE and be a "normal" teen, which she is not. This particular girl is 16 going on 35, and she relates much better to adults than to her peers. Hey, that's not my doing. It's just the way she is. I cannot help it if she does not relate to other 16 year olds. Her boyfriend incidentally (who is also a musician) is 21. That also is not my doing, but it underscores her maturity, and perhaps underscores her parents' logic in some areas and total LACK of logic in other areas.To Steve Gilbert about me needlessly hanging on or "replacing myself". To do so at this point in time would mean the instant and immediate end of the girl's musical life. We live in an extremely isolated and rural area (usually big shows/events mean long drives). There is NO ONE else who does what I do. I PLAY ALL those roles - teacher, manager, musician, producer, etc., because there is simply no one else within a 200 mile radius who can do quite what I do, and the family WILL NOT move because of very cemented careers for both parents. She will not get to move until she goes off to college or finds her way in Nashville or similar. Believe me, at that time it WILL BE ME "pushing her out of the nest". I've done that for 25+ years now...one more makes no difference.Some of you are making this deeper than it needs to be I think. This boils down to (1) the mother not knowing what the voice is capable of, and (2) her needing to feel in control, and incidentally, the 2 day studio vocal marathon WAS NOT MY SCHEDULING! It was the mother's *BUDGET* that dictated such scheduling. Talk about contradictions. She'll pull her daughter off the stage after a RELAXING 2 hr set, but let her sing 21 hrs across two days in the studio. I'm not stupid folks. I know what a voice can and cannot do. When thousands of hard-earned dollars are on the line, even an over protective mother will put her own concerns aside. Logic does not always prevail with this woman. Actually almost never. Hmmm the word "menopause" is beginning to come to mind...oops...sorry folks...couldn't resist You guys need to realize that I have watched this girl break down and cry because she wants to sing and play and her parents are pushing her to do more "normal" things like go to one more sleep-over with other kids she can't even stand most of the time. She's a STRAIGHT "A" student by the way, and has won EVERY honor known to man. The girl was put here to make music, WANTS TO DO SO, is damn good at it, and the only time she's NOT doing it is when she's been told she can't. In her own words, "It's the life she lives for". I can't count the number of times I have heard her in debate with her mother about wanting to go ahead and finish up highschool as a "home schooler" so that she can be more devoted to music. I only bring all this up to underscore that she is NOT BEING FORCED to do anything in music. She is being FORCED AWAY kicking and screaming sometimes. I'm not going to sit here and make the parents concerns wrong or say that the kid shouldn't be normal. Of course she should. I have raised 3 kids of my own and done quite well, thank you very much. But when a mother is losing her mind over PERCEIVED damage that is NOT happening, something has to be done, because the girl will pay the ultimate price, and guess who will be resented ultimately. She will resent her mother later in life. My wife went through exactly this as a child. Great voice, great potential - a promising career ahead of her. Because her father played in a band, he said "no daughter of mine will ever be a musician"...The resentment never fully healed. My wife, now 40, can't sing, can't play and is quite unhappy with herself. She speaks to her parents maybe twice a year. IF THE MUSIC IS INSIDE FOLKS, YOU HAVE TO YIELD TO IT! I have learned one CANNOT go against the grain of who they are. Doing so creates unhappiness, which creates disease. I spoke with a pyschologist friend of mine about this earlier today and he brought up something I hadn't even though of (although someone above in a previous post almost hit on it earlier): The fact that eventually the girl will start CREATING HER OWN VOCAL PROBLEMS because it's "what's expected". In other words if preached to long enough by her parents that damage is being done to her voice, she will begin to "oblige" those physiological conditions in her body, and eventually, indeed she will CREATE her vocal damage as prescribed and mandated by her parents. After all, thoughts are indeed "things".Trust me guys, I am not "clinging" to someone else's musical dream. I have a writing deal, several albums on the shelves, and a whole "brood" of successful students in the music industry to remind me how well I'm doing. I just don't want to see this girl(s) (parents) blow a great thing.Hope that clears some things up...SteveWell. These are things that people say when they don't get the whole story in the first instance.Mothers can react in that way too.Good luck with the issues. I'm sure the psychologist will help you to arrive at satisfactory outcome.

[sgs4u]

methinks thou dost protest tomuch

[sgs4u]

I just don't get why you're here, on this Taxi forum. You already seem to be fending off arguments quite well. I suggest you marry the girl and run away with her.

[stevehacker]

With all due respect Gilbert, you're an ASSHOLE. I'm trying to have an honest discussion with people here to get answers on how to keep a good working relationship with the entire family.

[jeffe]

I think that's probably a bit strong calling Steve an ASSHOLE.That would equate to most of the regular members on this forum being ASSHOLES, including me.Having spent a good deal of time reading and posting on this forum. You will discover that points of discussion will be attacked from all sides. Also, we like to use humour. You will probably see an indication of that in the smilies.Steve is a parent, and so am I. If my daughter was involved in that situation, I'm quite sure that Steve's point of view would cross my mind too.If I got the reaction, as a parent, that you posted. I'd be encouraging my daughter to keep away. I would be enraged if you called me an ASSHOLE for bringing up such a matter. My daughter is the most precious thing to me in this world, and if I was insulted for talking about possible motives. I'd be trying my hardest to remove her from the situation.Your intentions may well be good, but you cannot step aside from these possibilities as well. Who's to say that this has not crossed the mothers mind, and if it hasn't, it's something you need to be prepared for, because if she feels like she is losing control, then this iron might be thrown into the fire.I will assume that you have probably insulted the mother under your breath a few times. Diplomacy will be the greatest tool you can wield.I think Steve has taken the selfishness angle. Meaning that it appears you are thinking about what YOU want, and you want to remove the obstacles so that you can get what YOU want. Believe me. Many parents will also see things this way.You've got a lot of hurdles to climb over when it comes to parents and children. If you do it carefully enough, you wont fall over.

[edteja]

stevehacker,You have me confused. You stated a situation and asked for input. Several people provided their thoughts, some more aggressively than others, but all in the spirit of answering specific questions that you asked. Not one of us claimed expertise, other than as musicians, performers and parents. Your immediate reaction is that we are overcomplicating it, yet perhaps you are oversimplifying things. I am delighted that you are talking to trained professionals (throat doctors and shrinks) and so it is confusing that you thought we might offer ideas other than we have. As Jeffe pointed this out, you raised the issue on the forum. None of these comments are gratuitous nor are they unsolicited. To call someone an asshole because they gave an honest opinion does not speak well of you. Please don't ask for more help, because there seems to be no reason for us to give it--since the masochists are few and far between.

[Casey H]

Hi SteveI read this thread a few times. Reality is her mother is her mother. There is probably nothing that another music professional can do or say that would change anything. As far as Mom is concerned, she is protecting her daughter's interests and we (those of us reading) really have no way of knowing if she is right or wrong. I am not defending her or not defending her but she has her daughter's best interests at heart and even if she is being over-protective, that's the way it is. You can never get in between two family members- they will both end up hating you.If you want to stay involved with her music career you only have 2 choices: (1) Go with the flow or (2) Get out.Best of luck to you and to this talented young lady! Casey

[ddusty]

Ahhh, this is why I love (hate) the internet. the written word does not convey the same sense as the spoken word. Jokes can come off as insults, and conversations can escalate in the wrong direction.I just re read Steve's initial post, I believe all he was looking for from the taxi folks (Experienced Singers especially) was if anyone had any information on singing techniques and the human voice in general. So the mother could be educated about what is safe and what the real dangers are. He may have even wanted some first hand experience from some of the members. (i.e. Hummingbird, you appear to be an accomplished/classically trained vocalist, maybe you have personal experience about singing safely)stevehacker was not asking us to solve his problem, just looking for info.(sorry this is getting long)to stevehacker,you have to understand since no one here knows you personally, and we have no facts other than what you have told us (just one side of the story) it will stand to reason that at some point we have to question your motives. By all appearances your motives appear to be genuine, but how can any of us actually know that for sure?So don't take naturally skepticism to be an attack on your character.Now with all that said, I do not have any useful info for you about singing, and the only advice I have (which has been stated already) is to keep positive in the dealings, try to keep the mother involved, let her feel like she is still in control of things and hopefully she doesn't do too much damage in the 2 years until your prodigy is 18.Good luck,Rob