neverending mix #2

[mazz]

I recommend renting or at least finding a store that will let you try out various mics.Alternatively, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend and I'm sure others have a 30 day return policy which is pretty much like renting. Buy the mic, record some tracks with it, if you don't like it, return it before the credit card bill comes in.The recommendations for the Rode mics are good ones, I've heard good things about them.A mic that intrigues me these days is a Heil PR40. It's a dynamic (like the SM57) but it's a large diaphragm. Lots of people are using them for voice overs and it's pretty inexpensive. I haven't heard one but the reviews have been generally positive.There are deals to be had on used gear as well although I'd only get something through a reputable dealer that you can interact with face to face. A few years ago my wife and I were mic shopping and we found a Neumann TLM 193 for 700.00 including shock mount which is usually 150 by itself. It was in perfect shape. We tried it out at the local shop that deals in used studio gear (they broker entire studios that go out of business) and I trust them totally. Never had a problem.The Audio Technica mics are well regarded. They have a number of models in your price range. The MXL mics are inexpensive but some of them have the "Neumann-esque" presence peak but without the smoothness of a Neumann. The tube MXL with the Mogami cable may sound pretty nice. For your voice, a tube mic might be the ticket.If I had Enya or Lorenna in my studio, I'd try 3 different mics: A solid state condenser for a brighter sound, A tube condenser for a fatter, smooth sound, a ribbon for a bit of a darker color. These are broad categories and any of those types of mics will exhibit any of the characteristics of the other but it's a good place to start.If you're near Vancouver, maybe you can rent some mics and a couple of hours in a local studio and record some things with all the mics set up at the same time, each to it's own track and then burn a CD and evaluate them on your own time.I hope this isn't overwhelming. I'm obsessive about this stuff and don't have anyone to talk with about it in everyday life so you guys get the brunt of it. Feel free to tell me to stop Ciao for now,Mazz

[mazz]

Quote:It's normaly $999.97 but Sweetwater got a B-Stock Blueberry for $649.00.That's what I would call a bargain! BLUE Blueberry B-StockMan that's a great deal! The Blue mics are very nice and if you can swing the extra bucks, I'd jump on it.Mazz

[og]

Quote:I hope this isn't overwhelming. I'm obsessive about this stuff and don't have anyone to talk with about it in everyday life so you guys get the brunt of it. Feel free to tell me to stop Ciao for now,MazzAre you kiddin'? This is like tech support that actually calls back! I use an AKG Perception 200 for vocals. I'm only happy with it on lower pitched songs. When I sing higher, I sound thin. Of course, that could be the pipes getting old, too...

[mazz]

Quote:Quote:4. Not enough compression on the vocal. Try two compressors after each other. Hepha LuempSo why chain the compressors. Ern was talking about 4:1 with, I believe a single compressor, but in another context Andre mentioned chaining compressors. What do you gain with that?I've seen this mentioned quite a bit recently in interviews with top engineers.My take on it is: Different compressors have different characteristics. An engineer may use one to tame the peaks (fast attack and release, high ratio) and another to provide gain riding (slower attack, longer release, lower ratio, i.e.: 4:1). These engineers know their compressors and what order to connect them.Given that compression is typically a challenging subject to wrap one's head around, I'm not sure that I'd advise someone to chain two together until they have a better understanding of what a compressor does and how to use it. There's nothing worse than an over compressed vocal, instrument or mix. I agree that the vocals could use a bit of compression on this piece but, given the nature of the piece, even if the mix was fuller, it's still not a crankin pop mix that needs to have the vocal squashed just to cut through. This song needs a bit of dynamics.IMO, start with one compressor and play around with it until you start to understand how it works (assuming you don't already know). Then move to chaining two together for controlling different aspects of the sound that one alone may not be able to achieve.My $0.02 Mazz

[ernstinen]

Hi Hummin'bird,Here's a couple of reasonably priced mics I've heard good things about:http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ ... -------Now, kids, here's the scoop on the Shure 57/58! I've heard of a few screamin' HARD rock male singers using them in the studio through a mono compressor such as the dbx 160x because they're used to that sound and the feel of a hand-held mic. It gave them the PERFORMANCE they were after.For vocals, the 57/58 was designed for a male voice because of the upper midrange peak, especially for stage use. I used to mix audio for live band videos, and every time a female vocalist used one it was painful (except if the singer was a gutsy blues singer). I personally used a 57 to sing through live, but never in the studio.So I think it's prudent to steer Vicki to a large diaphragm cardioid condenser mic. (Just make sure you sing into the side with THE DOT! ---- Old joke for some of us veterans here --- ).My 2 cents,Ern

[matto]

Hi Vikki,I'm gonna disagree with the people who say you need a new mic. I don't think you do.Could you get a better sound with a more expensive vocal mic? Probably. But that's not what's keeping this song from broadcast quality.What's holding you back are your skills as a producer and engineer, not your gear. So don't go drop $500 on a mic thinking this will fix your problems. You'll be $500 poorer and no further along in your quest to achieve broadcast quality.So...what to do? Try some of the following things:1- The lead vocal sound is okay, it just needs some compression. And yes you could experiment with getting closer to the mic as ern has suggested when you redo the vocal. And the reverb you're using sounds like a tiled bathroom . I'd try something darker and fuller/longer, like a nice dark hall perhaps. And probably less of it too...a little goes a long way on leads.2-The background vocals need to be in tighter sync and tune with the lead. They need to be mellower sounding, so experiment with not singing straight into the mic's front. If need be roll off the highend. Bus all the bg vocals to a subgroup, put some pretty firm compression on them, pan them around the stereo field leaving some space in the center for the lead, and put a dark sounding hall reverb on them (perhaps the same reverb as the lead but more of it, so the recede into the background where they belong).3-the piano works okay, except that some notes clash with your vocals (see paragraph 8 below).4-the violins/strings are a problem cause they play practically the same notes as the lead vocal sings, at least in the beginning...you'd generally never want a sound playing the same notes in the same range as your lead vocal, as it just gets in the way of the lead. The string sound is also a bit strident (sounds like a solo instrument or really small section) and has an annoying swell on every note, try to find a smoother patch (perhaps a larger section) which allows you to play more convincing legato lines that stay out of the way of your lead vocal. Then put your violins up above the lead vocal, playing a different chord tone, and the celli below, leaving the lead vocal with some room to breathe.5-The bass sound is weak and the part has an "amateur" feel to it in some places. I would use a more sustaining sound, like a fretless, which allows you to play a "simpler" more sustained part.I'd stay away from fancy fills unless they are something a bass player would actually do, otherwise it sounds too "one (wo)man band".6-The percussion is so low in the mix, it might as well not be there. Bring it up. If it sounds boring and stiff once you bring it up, work on it until it has a more organic feel (listen to some records in a similar style for percussion inspiration). I can already hear that that weird "ping-pong ball percussion" is probably not going to work.7-I would bring a pad in at the beginning of the song to fill in the sound, but the one you're using later on has too much high end which makes it sound like the recording is hissy. I would use two relatively mellow, but somewhat different sounding pads, play different inversions of the chords with each (one could pedal on common tones as much as possible), and subtly fade them up and down against each other using midi volume, so you have a nice solid, but subtly evolving atmosphere as a backdrop.8-Try to use your instrumentation/arrangement to help create better contrast between the sections of your song. Right now the whole thing just meanders along and there's no "okay here comes the chorus" or "now we're going back to the verse" moments in your arrangement that would help guide your listener along. Listen to commercial recordings in a similar style to get ideas about how this can be accomplished.9-Finally, there are some clashes in your arrangement. Places where vocals and instruments briefly don't play the same harmonies. These need to be worked out. For example at around 1:05 "far from you" your piano is playing the third on "from", and the vocals sing the fourth... a nasty half step clash which is repeated right after on "ing" of "sailing".There are things like this sprinkled throughout the song which give an uneasy and hapahazardous feel to the arrangement and production. Anyway these are some ideas. IMHO this is the kind of stuff that needs to be worked out first, before you spend money on more equipment. Hope this helps!matto

[hephaluemp]

Quote:Quote:From my point of view these things are way more important then having another mic.That said, I myself like a good quality microphone as much as the next guy.Still, there have been lots of good records made with main vocals from a Shure SM-57/58.Bono is known to use one, and also Bjork used one for one of her records.Hepha LuempHepha,I don't want to be a wiseacre but to think Bono and other superstars doall their vocals with a SM57 / SM58 is not the reality. Maybe they usedit here and there but certainly not as a main mic.Hehe!gunter, - certainly not as a main mic? Here's from an interview with the producer for the album Pop(1997)""It was very easy to record the vocals; very little EQ, just a little compression, and off we went. Sometimes, depending on the song, there'd be an effect used later, but when we started off, it would just be Bono with his SM58 going for it. Sometimes he'd sing to an effect; delay, flanging, distortion or whatever, just to react to it. But it wasn't as if we spent three weeks looking for a particular vocal treatment; we didn't do that at all."From soundonsound magazine July 1997The google cache link:http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:NVDt ... c5893530dd eaf295b4ab7b9c39+Bono+tracked+vocals+with+an+SM58And Bjork?:from a gearslutz thread:"I had the pleasure of tracking vocals for Bjork last year, and after setting up a few choice microphones in the studio's Iso booth, she asked if she could just use a 58 in the control with our nearfields. Patched it through a console channel (original Focusrite 110 modules) with an LA2A barely there on the insert. Her method of singing and working the mic was incredible to watch... definately an experience that left a big impression."The tread;"How do you record studio vocals with an SM57"http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthre ... =75926Also, Micheal Jackson used a dynamic mic, a Shure SM7, for lots of album, like for his Thriller album.Just google it, will 'ya? As for the Bono picture; Good posing. I guess the photographer wanted a studio like picture.This probably looked better than the reality: he holding and singing into a SM58 in the controlroom. Again - I like a good quality mic as much as the next man.That said: there are other issues with the mix in question that are way more obvious important.Hepha Luemp

[hummingbird]

whoa! all feedback is welcome.I specifically asked about a microphone because feedback said the first thing I need to do is get a new mic. While Bono & Jackson may use Shure SM58s, the point is they are male singers. I asked what mic might fit Enya or Loreena because my voice is very sweet and silvery and the problem I have with choosing a mic is that I have an unusual voice. I've been told by producers that my voice is challenging to mix - interesting, but challenging - because it is so bright. So I can't just run out and buy a mic. I have to test several and see which one (or two) is most effective.I agree I need a better mic, and better speakers. However, that will not fix the flaws in the piece as it is now. I appreciate all the comments on how to mix it better, in particular I appreciate Matto's comments on the composition of the music itself. He brought up several points in terms of creating tracks so that they are in counterpoint to the voice & this is very valuable information. When I read something like that, I say "oh, of course, that makes total sense!" but still I needed a mentor to point it out so I 'get' it. You see, if I'd followed the screener's advice, and hired an engineer to mix this piece for me... would they have heard the flaws in the composition? I don't know. Chances are, maybe not (based on my experience to date). And then I would be submitting it to film & tv thinking I'd aced it, and be totally confused when it was returned. In addition, an engineer might have used some methods to clear up the flaws they could hear but I would be left no better off in terms of knowing what is wrong with my raw tracks. I really appreciate this forum and all the advice and knowledge shared here. Conflicting opinions are going to come up, and that keeps it interesting!cheersHummin'bird

[mazz]

Legendary engineer Bruce Swedien handed Michael Jackson an SM57 in the control room for one of the songs on Thriller so Jackson could dance and sing while the big studio monitors were cranked. Might have been "Billie Jean". Great performance. Of course, Bruce Swedien could make a tin can and string sound good On the mic hunting trip I mentioned in one of my posts above, my wife tried out a KSM32 and we rejected it because it was just too bright for her voice. Some of the lower end condensers may artificially hype that frequency range (3-6K) to get that vintage condenser (neumann) sound. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Depends a lot on the voice.Mazz

[andreh]

Quote:Legendary engineer Bruce Swedien handed Michael Jackson an SM57 in the control room for one of the songs on Thriller so Jackson could dance and sing while the big studio monitors were cranked. Might have been "Billie Jean". Great performance. Of course, Bruce Swedien could make a tin can and string sound good On the mic hunting trip I mentioned in one of my posts above, my wife tried out a KSM32 and we rejected it because it was just too bright for her voice. Some of the lower end condensers may artificially hype that frequency range (3-6K) to get that vintage condenser (neumann) sound. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Depends a lot on the voice.MazzCompletely agree...it all depends on the source. I find the KSM32 to flatter my voice more than any other mic I've sung through.Bonnie Raitt is known to insist upon SM57's for all her studio and live sessions (though I'm "Shure" there are exceptions to this).Andre