*NEW* New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

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*NEW* New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by swdaze » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:06 am

Hi guys,

This is the latest patient "I WILL". Did a bottom up rewrite, everything got tweaked or changed. This is a scratch copy I chopped up the old guitar tracks and used what I could and then programmed some as well. First time with the new melody so yes the vocal will be redone. "I will love not another" will be changed to "I will love no other".

Specifically I am looking for comments on the song form/arrangement before I lay down the new guitar tracks as well as any production references (songs/artist) you might have.

Of course any and all other comments are welcomed ;)

Geo

TWO NEW ARRANGEMENTS

9/5/21. Hi guys, I did two new arrangements with the main choice being does this song need a break section. I just swapped in the third verse for the new first verse. I have a verse just not recorded. Guitars just place holders. I tried to set up a more traditional verse/preC/chorus arrangement though I skipped the preC in the first go around but it does come in after the solo.

I WILL (no break)
https://www.taxi.com/members/kFrx_Q6OQc ... -will-2021

This version goes solo to preC/chorus. I also shortened the section leading into the third verse not sure if I like it.


I WILL (with break)

https://www.taxi.com/members/kFrx_Q6OQc ... Z0g-i-will

This goes solo/break/preC/chourus.

Which do you prefer?
Should the intro stay similar or go full instrumentation?

I prefer "no break" if you just want to listen to one. No biggie.

Thanks, Geo
Last edited by swdaze on Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by AlanHall » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:44 am

Geo,
What I thought I heard on first listen was a verse, chorus, and then a bridge or some other section. Or maybe you started with the chorus?

In any event; I didn't get a lot of the expected, distinctive sectionalization that typify modern songs. In a commercial art form where 'chorus is king' there is likely to be an obvious change in dynamics, harmony, etc. between the chorus and the rest of the song. Makes it more memorable for the listener, gives them something to hum as they go about their day. Or so I'm told... ;)

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by Zaychi » Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:34 pm

Hey Geo,

I thought you were trying to modernize this song and take it to an EDM style? But it seems you changed your mind?

Something about it is still VERY dated; I think it is in the arrangement, vocal harmonies, and guitar playing style. It is really a nice song, but not contemporary at all.

As a production tip, don't pan the two guitar parts so wide... double both by playing them again and pan them hard left/right each, then SLIGHTLY take one left and the other right (if you still follow me); it will create a very spacious effect. As it is, it is like listening to two different songs on headphones.

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by irthlingz » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:51 pm

Hi Geo - Agree with Alan that more contrast between chorus and other sections, so that there'd be more of a "lift" on the chorus, would make it more commercial.
Zaychi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:34 pm
As a production tip, don't pan the two guitar parts so wide... double both by playing them again and pan them hard left/right each, then SLIGHTLY take one left and the other right (if you still follow me); it will create a very spacious effect. As it is, it is like listening to two different songs on headphones.
Do I understand Zaychi's suggestion to be something like this? (G1 = Guitar 1, G2 = Guitar 2)

Image

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by Zaychi » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:59 pm

Almost.... except no G1 hard left and no G2 hard right. So something like (sorry not so good with pics):

G2a...G1a...G2b...G1b

It's important that you don't use exact copies for the same G, but use the slight natural playing differences between playing the SAME part twice; otherwise the ear will recognize them as "exactly the same" and just plant the sound halfway, without any stereo effect. So G1a <> G1b, just very very similar.

This effect is used in many many songs. As an example, I did it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnDin6T7hV4

even though this is just one guitar hard panned both ways, and the playing differences were created by humanizing velocities and timing of a MIDI part. You'll hear that the guitar sounds in the middle, yet also has a "spacy" stereo effect.

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by irthlingz » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:02 pm

Zaychi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:59 pm
Almost.... except no G1 hard left and no G2 hard right. So something like (sorry not so good with pics):

G2a...G1a...G2b...G1b

It's important that you don't use exact copies for the same G, but use the slight natural playing differences between playing the SAME part twice; otherwise the ear will recognize them as "exactly the same" and just plant the sound halfway, without any stereo effect. So G1a <> G1b, just very very similar.

This effect is used in many many songs. As an example, I did it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnDin6T7hV4

even though this is just one guitar hard panned both ways, and the playing differences were created by humanizing velocities and timing of a MIDI part. You'll hear that the guitar sounds in the middle, yet also has a "spacy" stereo effect.
Thank you, Zaychi. I think I heard of this before but never quite got it!

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by Telefunkin » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:56 am

On listening I was immediately reminded of old Baywatch episodes where they often used a feel-good, summery-sounding 80's AOR track to accompany fast cut scenes of whatever was happening on the beach for that episode (lifeguard training, power boat race, beauty contest, rowing scene, etc). In other words, I'm agreeing with Zaychi that it sounds very stylised and dated. That doesn't mean there's no room for it in sync, but its place will be in retro listings rather than modern pop or rock styles. I know its not the final version, but I also agree that the arrangement could do with a bit of attention to provide more sense of development as the track progresses, and I see no point in including the detached solo guitar before the intro. Nice guitar sounds though, and I don't mind the panning.
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by swdaze » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:19 pm

AlanHall wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:44 am
Geo,
What I thought I heard on first listen was a verse, chorus, and then a bridge or some other section. Or maybe you started with the chorus?

In any event; I didn't get a lot of the expected, distinctive sectionalization that typify modern songs. In a commercial art form where 'chorus is king' there is likely to be an obvious change in dynamics, harmony, etc. between the chorus and the rest of the song. Makes it more memorable for the listener, gives them something to hum as they go about their day. Or so I'm told... ;)
Hey Alan, yeah that bridge section has bounced around this song. I think I'm going to settle on the structure of the last section of the song as the base set up. It's basically a verse/prechorus/chorus arrangement there. Now that I think of it I'll post an older version it has a different melody and a few changes in lyrics but the struccture is similar to what I'm thinking of doing. I'll use the solo arrangement from the new version going back into the prechorus/chorus before breaking down.

Thanks for the assist!!

Geo
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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by swdaze » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:33 pm

Zaychi wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:34 pm
Hey Geo,

I thought you were trying to modernize this song and take it to an EDM style? But it seems you changed your mind?

Something about it is still VERY dated; I think it is in the arrangement, vocal harmonies, and guitar playing style. It is really a nice song, but not contemporary at all.

As a production tip, don't pan the two guitar parts so wide... double both by playing them again and pan them hard left/right each, then SLIGHTLY take one left and the other right (if you still follow me); it will create a very spacious effect. As it is, it is like listening to two different songs on headphones.
I was but you and Mark ensured no one would want to do it. No biggie. Thank you for the compliment to be honest more concerned about putting down a good song than anything else.

Yeah an engineer showed me that trick back in the 90's, these are just scratch tracks, one is from a previous version so the singer had something to sing his scratch track over.

Thanks for the listen,

Geo
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Re: New drum platform = redoing drum tracks which = rewriting songs. Music math.

Post by swdaze » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:41 pm

Telefunkin wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:56 am
On listening I was immediately reminded of old Baywatch episodes where they often used a feel-good, summery-sounding 80's AOR track to accompany fast cut scenes of whatever was happening on the beach for that episode (lifeguard training, power boat race, beauty contest, rowing scene, etc). In other words, I'm agreeing with Zaychi that it sounds very stylised and dated. That doesn't mean there's no room for it in sync, but its place will be in retro listings rather than modern pop or rock styles. I know its not the final version, but I also agree that the arrangement could do with a bit of attention to provide more sense of development as the track progresses, and I see no point in including the detached solo guitar before the intro. Nice guitar sounds though, and I don't mind the panning.
Thanks for the listen. I would have to be on set for the video shot of course!!

Posted an previous version with a more traditional arrangement I'm going to try with a couple of tweaks. It also has the entire guitar intro which is pretty sweet.

Thanks again!!

Geo
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