Post-deadline audio file updates

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Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by RPaul » Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:21 pm

So last night I was in one of those (all-too-typical) rushes to make a one-minute-before-midnight deadline on a listing where I'd written and recorded the song specifically to target the listing. My tracking and editing took much longer than I'd hoped, and I had less than an hour to do a mix and upload the result. (My "normal" time on a mix tends to be on the order of a few days, though this was a much more stripped down arrangement than most of my recordings.) I got it submitted in time, and it sounded reasonable, but today, in trying to prepare some archive files from this snapshot of the project (e.g. to have stems and such ready if something comes of the submission since subsequent mixes could sound considerably different), I noticed some signal routing errors that made preparing some of the archive files a challenge at best, and almost certainly played into some of the reservations I had on last night's mix.

After creating the relevant files based on last night's mix, I decided to fix the routing issues in anticipation of future mixes, make adjustments to the mix needed after the routing changes, and make a few other minor tweaks to get what I feel is a better second mix, albeit not by a huge amount (any significant changes will need to wait for another time). Since the TAXI member pages also allow updating audio files, I also updated last night's mix to the new mix this evening.

My question is, in this case, where I'd gotten a mix in last night before the listing deadline, but now have updated the audio file for that song after the listing deadline, will the reviewer on the listing get the first (pre-deadline) file or the second (post-deadline) file? That is, do relevant files get collected at the time of the listing's expiration (e.g. midnight today) to go to the reviewer, or do they just get whatever happens to be current in the member profile at the point where they do the review?

Mostly just curious, though it could be useful to know in future cases where there is major crunch to get something acceptable in by a deadline, but another day (or few) could end up resulting in a significantly better mix.

Rick

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by hummingbird » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:11 am

RPaul wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:21 pm
So last night I was in one of those (all-too-typical) rushes to make a one-minute-before-midnight deadline on a listing where I'd written and recorded the song specifically to target the listing. My tracking and editing took much longer than I'd hoped, and I had less than an hour to do a mix and upload the result. (My "normal" time on a mix tends to be on the order of a few days, though this was a much more stripped down arrangement than most of my recordings.) I got it submitted in time, and it sounded reasonable, but today, in trying to prepare some archive files from this snapshot of the project (e.g. to have stems and such ready if something comes of the submission since subsequent mixes could sound considerably different), I noticed some signal routing errors that made preparing some of the archive files a challenge at best, and almost certainly played into some of the reservations I had on last night's mix.

After creating the relevant files based on last night's mix, I decided to fix the routing issues in anticipation of future mixes, make adjustments to the mix needed after the routing changes, and make a few other minor tweaks to get what I feel is a better second mix, albeit not by a huge amount (any significant changes will need to wait for another time). Since the TAXI member pages also allow updating audio files, I also updated last night's mix to the new mix this evening.

My question is, in this case, where I'd gotten a mix in last night before the listing deadline, but now have updated the audio file for that song after the listing deadline, will the reviewer on the listing get the first (pre-deadline) file or the second (post-deadline) file? That is, do relevant files get collected at the time of the listing's expiration (e.g. midnight today) to go to the reviewer, or do they just get whatever happens to be current in the member profile at the point where they do the review?

Mostly just curious, though it could be useful to know in future cases where there is major crunch to get something acceptable in by a deadline, but another day (or few) could end up resulting in a significantly better mix.

Rick
They listen to the file that is online when they go to screen it. Once a deadline is passed there's no telling when screening will begin. But I've certainly replaced a file after deadline... fingers crossed :)
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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by superkons » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:14 am

Whatever you submitted first is what the screener hears. Updating the track in your Profile page does not trigger an update to your submission. If you are "lucky" enough, you might find an "Edit" link for your submissions, which will let you upload the new version of your tune. I said "lucky" because there has been a lot of discussion around how and if the "Edit" link gets displayed, I hope you will be able to see it!
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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by RPaul » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:14 am

Hmm, two responses thus far, and seemingly with diametrically opposed answers.

Just to be clear, the Edit link was available on the song in my profile's song entry. That is the link I was alluding to in terms of uploading an update of the recording. I was not trying to change the submission itself (e.g. submitting a different song).

The question really would seem to boil down to whether something in the system takes a snapshot of the audio file at the time of the submission (or at the time of the deadline for the submission) to determine what the reviewer will hear, or whether the submission data just includes the link to the song in our profile such that whatever is at that link when the reviewer reviews that submission is used. I'm inclined to suspect the latter (i.e. Vikki's answer), but perhaps this is only someone from TAXI would know, unless someone here has history of having changed an audio file between submission and review where there was a big enough change between the two versions that the review comments would definitively say ended up getting one or the other.

FWIW, in the past when I've come up so close against these deadlines, the compromise has typically been something along the lines of going with a really stripped down version of the song (e.g. no background vocals, or just piano/vocal or guitar/vocal) because I didn't have time to get other parts of the arrangement I have in mind together in time, even though I'll continue to work on the recording post-deadline to get it to my full vision of the song for whatever future possibilities. The time taken to truly finish the recording could be days or weeks. I figure, if I get a forward, and if I get contacted by the recipient of that forward, I can offer that recipient the fuller version, but I want to have all the relevant files from the version they liked available, just in case they prefer that (or want both).

In this particular case, though, the arrangement I submitted is the one that I wanted, but, in my hurry to get a mix in time for the deadly, I did not check to verify that routing I thought I'd set up in Cubase actually "took". The mix sounded pretty reasonable as it stood, but I noticed the routing errors the next day when trying to create an instrumental mix, when muting what I thought was a vocal bus didn't actually mute the vocal. It turned out the lead vocal itself was going directly to the master bus (stereo out -- this is pretty much always my default for tracking, prior to getting to actually working on the mix), and the vocal reverb was going to the instrumental submix bus (which just happened to be the destination for the last routing I'd set up prior to creating the vocal reverb bus). So the lead vocal was not passing through the mix bus compression, and there was also an aural exciter on the (inadvertently unused) vocal bus that ended up not being part of the mix at all (which is REALLY weird because I could have sworn I'd heard differences when setting that up and making some changes -- I guess panicking on a deadline's nearness can cause auditory effects). I also ended up increasing the level of the instrumental reverb in the mix I made after remedying the routing errors and adjusting for the routing changes. The net was that the second mix felt like a subtle improvement, seeming to gel a bit more.

Rick
Last edited by RPaul on Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by superkons » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:24 am

RPaul wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:14 am
Hmm, two responses thus far, and seemingly with diametrically opposed answers.

Just to be clear, the Edit link was available on the song in my profile's song entry. That is the link I was alluding to in terms of uploading an update of the recording. I was not trying to change the submission itself (e.g. submitting a different song).

The question really would seem to boil down to whether something in the system takes a snapshot of the audio file at the time of the submission (or at the time of the deadline for the submission) to determine what the reviewer will hear, or whether the submission data just includes the link to the song in our profile such that whatever is at that link when the reviewer reviews that submission is used. I'm inclined to suspect the latter (i.e. Vivian's answer), but perhaps this is only someone from TAXI would know, unless someone here has history of having changed an audio file between submission and review where there was a big enough change between the two versions that the review comments would definitively say ended up getting one or the other.

FWIW, in the past when I've come up so close against these deadlines, the compromise has typically been something along the lines of going with a really stripped down version of the song (e.g. no background vocals, or just piano/vocal or guitar/vocal) because I didn't have time to get other parts of the arrangement I have in mind together in time, even though I'll continue to work on the recording post-deadline to get it to my full vision of the song for whatever future possibilities. The time taken to truly finish the recording could be days or weeks. I figure, if I get a forward, and if I get contacted by the recipient of that forward, I can offer that recipient the fuller version, but I want to have all the relevant files from the version they liked available, just in case they prefer that (or want both).

In this particular case, though, the arrangement I submitted is the one that I wanted, but, in my hurry to get a mix in time for the deadly, I did not check to verify that routing I thought I'd set up in Cubase actually "took". The mix sounded pretty reasonable as it stood, but I noticed the routing errors the next day when trying to create an instrumental mix, when muting what I thought was a vocal bus didn't actually mute the vocal. It turned out the lead vocal itself was going directly to the master bus (stereo out -- this is pretty much always my default for tracking, prior to getting to actually working on the mix), and the vocal reverb was going to the instrumental submix bus (which just happened to be the destination for the last routing I'd set up prior to creating the vocal reverb bus). So the lead vocal was not passing through the mix bus compression, and there was also an aural exciter on the (inadvertently unused) vocal bus that ended up not being part of the mix at all (which is REALLY weird because I could have sworn I'd heard differences when setting that up and making some changes -- I guess panicking on a deadline's nearness can cause auditory effects). I also ended up increasing the level of the instrumental reverb in the mix I made after remedying the routing errors and adjusting for the routing changes. The net was that the second mix felt like a subtle improvement, seeming to gel a bit more.

Rick
Rick, apologies for misunderstanding. Gathering from what you said, you updated your original entry with the new version of the tune, which is what the screener ultimately will listen to, so you are good.
I mistakenly assumed you were referring to updating the tune on your Taxi profile
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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by AlanHall » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:26 am

RPaul wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:14 am
and seemingly with diametrically opposed answers.
Rick,
Not at all. If you know to navigate to the submission page and update the sound file there, then as long as the "edit" is available there's a chance that the screener will get the latest version when they pull the files to review. It seems as no-one on the forum is really sure when the edit feature disappears; when the screener retrieves the files, or some other random time? So it may be possible that the screener has already auditioned the track before the edit feature disappears, since it also seems possible that the edit feature disappears long before the tracks get screened. The connection between the act of screening and the existence of the edit feature seems to be uncorrelated, at least to the comments I've read and my own experience.

It's important to note (as you already have) that the tracks on the member page and the tracks submitted for a listing are not physically the same files, updating the member page files does nothing to update an already-submitted track.*

*simulpost, Marco has addressed that as well.

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by RPaul » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:37 am

superkons wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:24 am
Rick, apologies for misunderstanding. Gathering from what you said, you updated your original entry with the new version of the tune, which is what the screener ultimately will listen to, so you are good.
I mistakenly assumed you were referring to updating the tune on your Taxi profile
I did actually update the audio file on the tune in my TAXI profile. I did not do anything to update the submission. (I did not think that was even a possibility.)

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by RPaul » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am

AlanHall wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:26 am
Not at all. If you know to navigate to the submission page and update the sound file there, then as long as the "edit" is available there's a chance that the screener will get the latest version when they pull the files to review. It seems as no-one on the forum is really sure when the edit feature disappears; when the screener retrieves the files, or some other random time? So it may be possible that the screener has already auditioned the track before the edit feature disappears, since it also seems possible that the edit feature disappears long before the tracks get screened. The connection between the act of screening and the existence of the edit feature seems to be uncorrelated, at least to the comments I've read and my own experience.

It's important to note (as you already have) that the tracks on the member page and the tracks submitted for a listing are not physically the same files, updating the member page files does nothing to update an already-submitted track.*
Hmm, looking further, if I go to my pending submissions (is that where this Edit Submission you are referring to would be?), there is no Edit capability. Perhaps, if it exists at all (not disputing that it might, just that I have zero knowledge of it from personal experience -- I always just assumed that, once you submitted to a listing, it was final), it may only be available until the deadline for the submission?

So, if what you're saying in the second paragraph is true, it looks like my update would not have affected the submission. :( Oh well... It was a pretty minor change in general, but I really was curious. In the past, when I've updated audio files for songs I've submitted to past listings, it has always been well after the review from the listing came back (and much more substantial changes), so I've had no reason to wonder about this previously.

Rick

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by AlanHall » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:01 am

RPaul wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am
Hmm, looking further, if I go to my pending submissions (is that where this Edit Submission you are referring to would be?), there is no Edit capability. Perhaps, if it exists at all (not disputing that it might, just that I have zero knowledge of it from personal experience -- I always just assumed that, once you submitted to a listing, it was final), it may only be available until the deadline for the submission?
From the posts I've read, the edit button is an elusive creature that may never be present, or still present long after the tracks have been screened. I'm sure there's a logical reason for its behavior, I just don't know it.
So, if what you're saying in the second paragraph is true, it looks like my update would not have affected the submission. :( Oh well... It was a pretty minor change in general, but I really was curious. In the past, when I've updated audio files for songs I've submitted to past listings, it has always been well after the review from the listing came back (and much more substantial changes), so I've had no reason to wonder about this previously.
I uploaded an early version of a track to my member page once, to get feedback on the forums. I went ahead and submitted from that link. Later, I updated the track on the member page and realized I could NOT update my submission from there. I found the edit button on the submission, and uploaded the new version from my computer, but never really knew if the track had been updated - there's no way to audition the submitted track, it's completely separate from the member page tracks. So my takeaway from that experience is to not submit to a listing until I know I have the best possible (up to the deadline at least!) track on my member page. Then I can submit, being able to audition the track before pressing the 'submit' button. That's my OCD talking, anyway. :roll:

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Re: Post-deadline audio file updates

Post by RPaul » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:32 am

AlanHall wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:01 am
I uploaded an early version of a track to my member page once, to get feedback on the forums. I went ahead and submitted from that link. Later, I updated the track on the member page and realized I could NOT update my submission from there. I found the edit button on the submission, and uploaded the new version from my computer, but never really knew if the track had been updated - there's no way to audition the submitted track, it's completely separate from the member page tracks. So my takeaway from that experience is to not submit to a listing until I know I have the best possible (up to the deadline at least!) track on my member page. Then I can submit, being able to audition the track before pressing the 'submit' button. That's my OCD talking, anyway. :roll:
Interesting. The submission system obviously takes tracks from the member page tracks. While I haven't seen the issue in the new system, I know in the older system there were times when I'd uploaded a file to my member page, then gone to do the submission, but the track was not yet available. There was some delay while the audio file was being processed, so I had to wait until it was there. (Nowadays, I just keep refreshing my member page until I see the visual from the track show up. I usually play it once after that to be safe, too.)

I guess what you're saying here (and what Marco was saying earlier) is that, when you make the submission, the submission system makes a copy of the audio file from the member page (as opposed to just putting a link to it in the submission) in some other area within TAXI's system, so that the audio from the entry is frozen in time, in some separate area. That would seem to me a pretty inefficient way to design this sort of system given the significant extra storage needs (i.e. if I submit the same exact song to 5 different listings, that would mean there are six copies of the audio file on the system -- i.e. the one on my member profile and one for each of the five listings -- my IT background speaking here).

I also always wait to submit until I have the best possible version I can make and still make the deadline. But there have also been several times where I've been running up against the deadline, and then I have to decide whether I have a version that is good enough to submit or if I don't submit at all despite all the work done on it writing and recording to target that specific listing. There have definitely been times where I just wasn't close enough, so had to pass on submitting. (I still finish the recording, however much longer it takes, and can always release it as a single or album track, and possibly submit it to other listings if it fits any that come along later.) But there've also been times when I've had something I felt should fit well enough, despite having had to cut some corners to be able to make the deadline. This was one of those, where my "one-hour mix" efforts had to consist of quickly finding some plugin presets for the instrument tracks (thankfully, I'd already decided on most of the vocal processing earlier, the exceptions being adding delay and reverb, and having intended to include the exciter, in the mix) and making quick decisions, but the actual arrangement is what I expect the final arrangement of the song to be, even if I take more time to finesse the mix later on (and I won't decide that until after I at least make a car listening test to my second mix).

Anyway, thanks for your inputs (and also to Marco and Vikki).

Rick

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