Help someone wants to use my song!!

[adam]

Hi Everyone,I've been contacted by a local film maker. He is making a music history documentary and wants to use one of my songs in the movie. Actually, the song will be used during the opening and closing credits. At the moment he is not offering any money because he has very little budget. I don't feel that this is right but I don't know what type of money or deal to ask for. I don't want to go after his buidget but I feel I should get some money for letting him use the song. After all, he had the money to film the movie......Can you give me any ideas of what to negotiate?ThanksAdam

[davewalton]

Quote:Hi Everyone,I've been contacted by a local film maker. He is making a music history documentary and wants to use one of my songs in the movie. Actually, the song will be used during the opening and closing credits. At the moment he is not offering any money because he has very little budget. I don't feel that this is right but I don't know what type of money or deal to ask for. I don't want to go after his buidget but I feel I should get some money for letting him use the song. After all, he had the money to film the movie......Can you give me any ideas of what to negotiate?ThanksAdam Some (perhaps many) low-budget films don't have much of a budget. You mentioned that he had the budget for the film... "had" is a past tense word. I've done my fair share of "copy/credit only" films, not just placing a pre-existing song but as the composer creating the film score - lots of work. You can always ask for deferred payment. If the film becomes profitable you get paid. That's a fair and common arrangement... "I don't have the money to pay you but if or when I do I certainly will".I do music full time and right now I'm doing two paid film projects, a paid network television project and a "copy/credit only" film score. I know another guy that's done a lot of film and television and he also picks up these "copy/credit" projects, sometimes, like me, as an "art for art's sake" kind of thing but also for what it might lead to elsewhere. I've had some pretty crazy (amazing crazy) things happen as a result of copy/credit films.Unless it's an obvious scam (which is doesn't sound like it is), a real project, paid or unpaid, is at least a possible stepping stone to something else. Nothing is a stepping stone to, well, not much. HTH,Dave

[mazz]

Dave is right Listen to Dave!!!! (Another T-shirt!)The film business (which is the business you're in right now for this deal) is based on long term relationships. This film maker may or may not be the next Coen brothers but you never know. That's one reason to consider this offer, money or not. Another more realistic reason is that now you can say that you've had your music in a film. The credit pays your career forward at this point much more than 50 or 100 or 200 dollars does. Credits are your stock in trade at this stage of the game.Retain your publishing so you can use the song elsewhere. Have the film maker sign a non-exclusive contract which stipulates they own nothing and can use your song only in their film in the places where they are placing it. Any usage for trailers, etc. can be negotiated. For instance, you could ask for screen credit on any trailers in leiu of payment.There's tons of great books out there to educate yourself on this aspect of the business. It's the business where film and music meet which is a different business than selling songs to artists or yourself as an artist to a record company.My recommendation is to take the deal. What have you got to lose? Nothing if you don't give them anything but the usage in the film. What have you got to gain? A credit on your resume. Those add up in the eyes of the industry.Have fun,Mazz

[Casey H]

Absolutely listen to what Dave and Mazz are saying!! Allowing your music to be used for free in lower budget indie films (or even student films!) is a great way to get started. I have a few of these and listing them in my credits is very helpful and you never know who these filmmakers will be in the future. Today's relationship and gratitude for help, early on, can mean a lot down the road.A few years ago I had a chance for my song, "Adrenaline", to be used in an indie film about bike racing for no upfront fee. Instead of just saying, "sure, use it for credit only" I tried a little too hard to press for something that said if the film ever distributed more than N copies or some other qualifier, the compensation would have to be re-negotiated. My emails went suddenly very silent. I blew it. That doesn't mean you should ask for something, but be VERY gentle. One of the reasons what I asked for was a problem is the filmmakers didn't know who they might end up selling the film to and didn't want to have to drag along any obligations that could cause problems.Today, I am working on my 4th indie film placement, with the total license fees earned being $100... I don't worry about it at all... Good luck! Casey

[rcase]

Hope it's OK to play devil's advocate, here, for the sake of a lively discussion..Casey, what if you didn't really 'blow it'? Maybe that one went down exactly the way it should have. I was reading your post waiting to hear you say the indie film went on to big things, or its makers did, etc. I get your point about being gentle, but I would underline your statement that there's nothing wrong with asking. Yes, we have to be aware of the realities of the marketplace we're operating in. One of those, is the fact that the supply is much greater than the demand. I think most of us are aware of that. However..** Semi-Rant Warning** (this isn't directed at you Casey, or anybody in particular..just at the way things are..)Let's say Joe Blow's band wants their song in something, anything so badly that they gladly allow it to be used for credit. That indie film goes on to become a sort of cult hit. Then something bigger than a cult hit. One might assume that Joe Blow's song played at least some small part in making the film what it is (if you say the song is irrelevant, then why did they want it in the first place?). This varies with usage perhaps, but some usages really do seem to 'make the scene'. So, if the others involved with the film are beginning to see some money, shouldn't Joe's band? A little something??I used the example of 'pop song placement' there, because in my mind, it's almost a separate issue from the underscore guys and gals. And I'd really appreciate a yay or nay on this distinction from all of you- underscore and 'song' people both. I can understand mazz or Dave doing some stuff for credit, experience, etc. with the thought that they can use it in their reel, and develop a relationship with that filmmaker (which may lead to future assignments/referrals). Does this apply as much to artists/bands though? So your band had a song in some film..so what? Unless you're going to custom-compose for my film, I don't see why that's relevant to me. I can see why a band or artist would do this from an exposure perspective. For me though- a non-performing writer/producer- beyond some initial vanity value, I'm interested in earning potential. Rob

[Casey H]

Hi RobYes, you should always ask. What I don't recall is if I pushed a little too hard. My memory might be a little grey, only remembering the disappointment part of it... It's very possible that I (personally) didn't blow it... For all I know, they would have blown off anyone who asked. And it's a tough line. You don't want to lose a freebee that is worth the credit while you don't want to see the film to go on to make a bundle and you get nothing. Some indie film makers will put into the agreement that it only applies to things like film festivals, promotion, etc and not for any profit generating use. Also, some will exclude future soundtrack sales so that mechanical royalties would apply if there ever was a soundtrack release.Saying "I blew it" was probably an exaggeration but it is important to tread lightly in any deal if it means a lot to you. And with four more successes in this area, I don't worry too much about it... It's long in the past. Casey

[davewalton]

Quote:Let's say Joe Blow's band wants their song in something, anything so badly that they gladly allow it to be used for credit. That indie film goes on to become a sort of cult hit. Then something bigger than a cult hit. One might assume that Joe Blow's song played at least some small part in making the film what it is (if you say the song is irrelevant, then why did they want it in the first place?). This varies with usage perhaps, but some usages really do seem to 'make the scene'. So, if the others involved with the film are beginning to see some money, shouldn't Joe's band? A little something??Yep, that's the "deferred payment" aspect I mentioned. That's a common and popular arrangement with a film maker or production company where they're saying "We don't have the money but if and/or when we do, we'll pay a nice fee". Normally the deferred payment is a flat fee plus a percentage of the profits (like maybe 3% - 5%). So a film that did REALLY well will will pay a larger fee than a film that didn't.On the flip side, you'll NEVER get a percentage of the take with a larger film, one that can afford to pay good fees upfront. Not even the mighty John Williams or Hans Zimmer can negotiate that kind of arrangement. So the smaller films are really potentially giving away a lot more, kind of a "penalty" for not having the funds upfront. A deferred payment arrangement on something like "Napoleon Dynamite" would be a REALLY nice payday.

[ragani]

Wow... this is a great thread... I heard G.M. at the Rally talking about the value of having film/tv or other credits. He gave the example of getting into an elevator where they were playing your song (theoretical, for the value of making his point, of course, though Musak does make good money I hear), and the guy next to you comments that he LOVES that song and then in your excitement you let him know that you wrote that song... and how cool is that?? He doesn't care if you made a ton of money, that guy just thinks it's cool to be standing there with you. And so if your song becomes part of a cult hit or something, your known value goes up, as would your opportunities and credits. Anyway, I was remembering that story because something like that happened to me (only it wasn't in an elevator)...While we're on the topic of movies... I have a question. An independent movie producer is making a movie about me (no kidding!) which will be pitched to spiritual cinema and all, and we need to get the synch license in place. I won't charge anything upfront for the use of our music (after all the movie is about me), though I wanted to add something in the contract to say that if/when the movie really takes off, that there could be a % that comes in (from video sales, downloads, etc.). The entire movie has music that I've written and produced, and I wanted to know if you all had an idea of what % might be fair. I have no idea. Never done anything like this before, and I want to be totally fair. Any ideas?God, this forum rocks. I can't believe I only read your posts from the distance for so many years and never posted here. Fool, I am. Raags

[adam]

Hi All,Thanks For the great feedback. I'm going to let him use the song. However, does anyone know what % I should ask for if the film gets distribution and makes money in the future?ThanksAdam

[ckbarlow]

Hey, all:Since you're all discussing music for film/TV, I want to put this question out. I've just been asked to teach a course (if it's approved) on composing for film, at Univ. of New Mexico. If you were taking that class, what would you want it to cover?Thanks,CK