A La This, A La That

[sevenworlds]

You speak as if music is a science or mathematical problem, Dave.It really doesn't have to be that way. That's where I'm coming from. There is a place for all sorts of music but the system is too conservative and fearful to see it. I, as a listener first and foremost, do not agree with how music is being handled by the system. It's not a "fight", it doesn't require any "energy", it's simply a principle I have. So, since Taxi is part of this and continues to perpetuate it... well, I'm just saying what I feel.Quote:I started to understand this a little better after getting a demo CD from Matt Hirt (Matto, here on the boards). I'll admit that initially I was a little disappointed because I was expecting a CD full of never-been-heard-before, ground-breaking material. After all, he gets a lot of major placements. What I got was a CD of very different styles and none of them particularly ground breaking in terms of "never heard it done that way before".Is this just your polite way of saying "generic" and "formulaic", perhaps? Quote:It's the music you could play in a music appreciation class But why would you want to make music for that reason? Whatever happened to writing because you have something to express as an individual? Whether you're in music to express yourself or for other reasons it's gonna be hard work either way so why would you want to put yourself through that and not take yourself the whole way? You may as well get a 9 - 5 job!Quote:"Whatever is left must then be the typical Beatles sound."But what is left??? Don't you see how absurd that is? Sure, you can eliminate "Helter Skelter", a few others but where do you draw the line? Just take a look at the diversity of their singles!Quote:It's easier to answer with my Zydeco example since Zydeco is a genre and Beatles isn't.That's exactly what I'm saying. You're finding it difficult narrowing things down to one artist so you want to demonstrate with a genre. If only Taxi/the system took things no further than genres - there'd be more scope for songwriters out of which some interesting things might appear.As you say, we all know what zydeco sounds like but there's room for maneouvre in that term. Just as blues or reggae conjure up a sound which is open to many possibilities. When you start chopping things up into artists and bands - but strangely not narrowing it down further - it stifles and confuses the songwriters and what you end up with is a lot of wishy-washy music getting through the system.

[davewalton]

Too many things to reply to. You win.

[davewalton]

Quote:Beatles in a box:Predominant use of open fifth harmonies. (Fairly unusual for a pop act at the time.)Bass parts are normally fairly busy tuba-style lines that cling to inner voices just as much as they do the root.Chromatic scales and melodies abound. They pretty much popularized this sort of chord sequence and it's widely and easily recognized as a "Beatlesy" thing. (See Lucy in the Sky, Dear Prudence or countless others.)Liverpudlian accents. But any remotely Brit type accent will do in a pinch!Ringo's patented <ba-da-bum-bum-ba-da> drum fill.Rickenbacker guitars or anything that goes jingle jangle.For later style, you can't go wrong with a mellotron. For earlier stuff, try a harmonica.If pointed out to them, most people would recognize the factors above even if they didn't understand anything about music. Lots of other defining stuff but don't have the time!That's a much better explanation than mine (take away everything that doesn't sound like Beatles and what you have left has the be the Beatles). Of course I prefaced it with "I'm in over my head". That never stopped me in the past from commenting. EDITI see now that with this post I became a "Full Member" and no longer a "Junior Member". Funny... I don't feel any smarter...

[matto]

Quote:Quote:I started to understand this a little better after getting a demo CD from Matt Hirt (Matto, here on the boards). I'll admit that initially I was a little disappointed because I was expecting a CD full of never-been-heard-before, ground-breaking material. After all, he gets a lot of major placements. What I got was a CD of very different styles and none of them particularly ground breaking in terms of "never heard it done that way before".Is this just your polite way of saying "generic" and "formulaic", perhaps? Hmm, not sure how and why exactly I got dragged into this and why I'm being insulted here, when it seems rather obvious that you guys have completely different goals:David (sevenworlds) wants to be a recording artist and get signed to a record deal...sort of...whereas Dave wants to make a living as a composer for film/tv.When you're trying to do the latter, stylistic versatilty is an asset (and being able to write Zydeco may actually come in handy), when you're trying to achieve the former, it is (at least initially) a disadvantage.Telling an artist he should make his music sound more like artist X in order to get signed is silly (this is not the same as showing somebody how to improve their writing by giving them examples of great songs and writers). When Taxi (or rather, the company running the listing) uses "ala's" in artist listings it's not to tell people to write something just like the a la artists, but to give people a stylistic ballpark. And, btw, (record) labels didn't come up with this, consumers will always use other well-known artists to describe somebody they've just heard for the first time...it's just us musicians who think we're so damn "unique" who shun those comparisons ). Be that as it may, as an artist, you need to write what you wanna write, and let the chips fall where they may. If it's not something the labels are interested in, take it directly to the public.When you're a songwriter or a composer for film/tv, things are a little different. It's not all about you. It's more of a collaborative process (regardless if you're actually collaborating at the time of writing). Your song has to make the artist performing it shine. Your music has to support the action or mood of the picture. For a composer, in order to be able to effectively support different scenarios, you need to have stylistic versatility. It's like being fluent in different languages. Some people find this sort of thing interesting and a challenge, to others it's distraction.Neither of these two ways of making music is any better or more worthwhile than the other.Just because you write in many different genres doesn't mean the end result has to be formulaic or generic, it's hopefully still full of your artistic personality.Just because you think you're a great artist and are "expressing your innermost feelings" doesn't mean that a) you're doing a good job at it and b) the end result can't be generic sounding, or even worse, just plain horrible . We've all heard too many examples of that .matto

[sevenworlds]

Quote:Hmm, not sure how and why exactly I got dragged into this and why I'm being insulted here, when it seems rather obvious that you guys have completely different goals:Sorry matto, it wasn't meant personally, I was poking fun at the description of your music, not the music itself, which I think I've only heard once. Couldn't resist Quote:Beatles in a box:Predominant use of open fifth harmonies. (Fairly unusual for a pop act at the time.)Bass parts are normally fairly busy tuba-style lines that cling to inner voices just as much as they do the root.Chromatic scales and melodies abound. They pretty much popularized this sort of chord sequence and it's widely and easily recognized as a "Beatlesy" thing. (See Lucy in the Sky, Dear Prudence or countless others.)Liverpudlian accents. But any remotely Brit type accent will do in a pinch!Ringo's patented <ba-da-bum-bum-ba-da> drum fill.Rickenbacker guitars or anything that goes jingle jangle.For later style, you can't go wrong with a mellotron. For earlier stuff, try a harmonica.Ahhh, so that's the recipe!I must try putting all those ingredients in a pot and heating gently... with a pinch of salt, of course. Quote:Just because you write in many different genres doesn't mean the end result has to be formulaic or generic, it's hopefully still full of your artistic personality.Just because you think you're a great artist and are "expressing your innermost feelings" doesn't mean that a) you're doing a good job at it and b) the end result can't be generic sounding, or even worse, just plain horrible . We've all heard too many examples of that .Writing in different genres isn't the problem - it should be encouraged. It's when the word 'genre' means the most formulaic, common-denominator form of that musical style that the music suffers. How can you put any of your personality into it when you're being restricted like that?When you talk of the genre Reggae the first person most people think of is Bob Marley. Funny that, because what he was doing back in the 70s was incorporating other styles into his reggae and so it wasn't pure reggae and he was criticised in some quarters because of this. Yet his music has come to define the term 'reggae' in this day and age. Hence, modern reggae is quite diverse because of him.The Beatles done a similar thing in the 60s but took it further so it seems absurd that they broke barriers down and now people want to put the very music that did this into some sort of box.I agree that just because you write as an artist, expressing yourself honestly, doesn't mean you will automatically be great. But you will offer something at least vaguely interesting because it will be unique to you. It might sound a bit like this and a bit like that but if you're doing it honestly it will mainly sound like you. That's surely always got to be of more value than sticking strictly to what some record exec defines as a genre.

[mani]

Quote:Ahhh, so that's the recipe!I must try putting all those ingredients in a pot and heating gently... with a pinch of salt, of course. You asked what would represent the Beatles. I was just answering that request. Does it mean I have a reductionist view of music? Not at all. But, if necessary, anything can be broken down no matter how 'inspired' it might be.Btw, your mileage may vary with that recipe! Quote:When you talk of the genre Reggae the first person most people think of is Bob Marley. Funny that, because what he was doing back in the 70s was incorporating other styles into his reggae and so it wasn't pure reggae and he was criticised in some quarters because of this. Yet his music has come to define the term 'reggae' in this day and age. Hence, modern reggae is quite diverse because of him.I'm sorry, but if you tried to run this by a genuine reggae buff, he'd laugh at you. All the 'pop' influences and elements on records like 'Catch A Fire' were added AFTER the fact by session musos in London under the supervision of Chris Blackwell from Island Records.Also, Reggae was already hugely diversified in its own styles before Marley ever even looked at a mic. Quote:I agree that just because you write as an artist, expressing yourself honestly, doesn't mean you will automatically be great. But you will offer something at least vaguely interesting because it will be unique to you. It might sound a bit like this and a bit like that but if you're doing it honestly it will mainly sound like you. That's surely always got to be of more value than sticking strictly to what some record exec defines as a genre.I don't think anyone would argue with this from a human point of view.

[davewalton]

Quote:If someone like Marley came along today, by the logic of people here defending Taxi, his best chances of making it would be limiting himself to the purest common-denominator reggae - and probably never being heard outside Jamaica.That's where I'm coming from when I say Taxi "encourages these limitations and barriers".I know a lot of Taxi members are here to produce music for film and tv and for other reasons, and I'm coming from a different angle so we'll never see eye to eye, but my initial post was simply to highlight what I feel are flaws in the Taxi system. I should clarify my position somewhat by saying that what can be done in terms of getting forwarded vs what can be done to get deals outside of Taxi are sometimes two different things. Regardless of why we're here (film deals, record deals), in terms of Taxi, our success is going to first depend on how well we meet the needs of the listing.This listing seems to ask for anything but the general standard:============================An LA-based Independent Label with major distribution is looking for a "groundbreaking, original" ALT. ROCK/HARDCORE BAND that will have a similar impact as did the following trailblazers: At the Drive-In, Queens of the Stone Age, Fugazi, ...Trail of Dead, Refused. ============================While this listing seems to only want the general standard:============================MODERN/ALT. ROCK SONGS [w/ vocals -- no instrumentals] a la Green Day, Social Distortion, the Foo Fighters, etc. are needed by a Major Entertainment Co. for film/TV/commercial placement. ============================Personally, I wouldn't do well with either of these listings, but if these were my bread and butter, I'd be groundbreaking on the first one and very much like the listed artists on the second.I had a recent music library placement with songs that I'm proud of but more along the "standard" rather than "creatively groundbreaking". Here is a link to one of these:30sec snippetwww.DaveWaltonMusic.com/MyMusic/CliffsByTheSea.mp3Not groundbreaking but it's what the library wanted. Once I was "in" I was able to place 15 more songs, some of them where I just did the songs for nothing more than being different and exercising some creative freedom:30sec snippetwww.DaveWaltonMusic.com/MyMusic/SolitudeOfTheOutback.mp3I can tell you that song #2 was a lot more fun to do than song #1, but I don't mind doing things like song #1 if they lead me to more things like song #2.I also wouldn't call this song "commercial" by any means but it's another one I was able to place later because of song #1:www.DaveWaltonMusic.com/MyMusic/Halluci ... Regardless of if anyone even thinks of this as a "song" or even music, I had a lot of fun and satisfaction doing it. Most people look at me, listen to that, and don't see how the two go together. So I think that there are some Taxi listings where the client is asking for total creativity and some that aren't. I try to look a little beyond the initial listing and hope for more creativity beyond that. My short experience is that my expectations are indeed reality.This is a good discussion, by the way. Dave