Guitar Tone - Who would have ever imagined?

[wta]

I just enjoy exchanging ideas and experiences. I've learned a lot from being on this forum: I really like it! I'm not out to be proven wrong or right. In fact: in many cases there is no wrong or right. Now, one finally story...

My brother is a much better guitarist than me.

One day he told me: "When you get great [guitar] gear, you can finally hear how you are really playing. And you realize that you are a crap player. Then after a lot of practice (now that you can finally hear how you are really playing) you get a lot better and wonder how you ever played with poor quality gear."

So...I bought myself an American Fender Strat and a Fender Twin Reverb and discovered that this was 100% true.

It's the same with vocals: when you get to track a vocal in a studio with an INCREDIBLE microphone, you can finally hear exactly how well you sing. You can hear every little movement of your mouth (sounds you didn't even realize you made).

All of these things are a shock to our egos...like the critiques from Taxi. It's then that we need to decide to:

1. improve or
2. give up.

Stuart

Great post Stu...

[ernstinen]

I remember when I was a young buck, living in Kalamazoo. My rock trio played a BIG concert, with an Aussie band headlining. I DID have my '63 Strat by then, but was playing through a Music Man combo with a solid state power amp.

Nevertheless, we SMOKED the headliners, and they were really pissed backstage! So what. We were better musicians, had better songs, and sang better.

So, the next day I got a call from a friend who worked in a music store. "Dude, you play great, but what you REALLY need is a Marshall amp for your style!" Of course, he was right, but I couldn't afford one for, um, about 10 years.

Again, playing the Libra, the scales for me are balanced between talent, songs, and decent gear on one side, and on the other side of taking the next step to professional gear, and fine-tuning your sound to make it better and better. THAT'S the professional thing to do. Don't sit on your laurels and say "I'm a fine guitar player." Become a BETTER guitar player, which comes from a lot of practice, getting the tone you want, and, yes, better sounding gear. Cripes, Pete Townsend now plays an American Strat, which is about $1000. BUT, he uses four top-of-the-line new Fender combos which cost $5000 EACH! I don't see him or Neil Young using Music Man combos. Guitarists are passionate about their gear if they are truly professional, and won't stand for anything that doesn't get them the sound they want. A lot of the art of electric guitar is the sound. And it IS a true art! A lot of pro guitarists are reticent to reveal how they get their sound, because they've spent YEARS experimenting and trying out everything on the planet. --- Like Mark Knopfler asked Billy Gibbons how he got his sound, to use on "Money For Nothing." Billy told him, "Sorry, Mark, but YOU figure it out for yourself!"

I'm also a keyboardist, and I understand non-guitarists being confused about the lengthy process professional guitarists go through during their careers.

Ern

[t4mh]

I'm also a keyboardist, and I understand non-guitarists being confused about the lengthy process professional guitarists go through during their careers.

You know this really is a true statement. I've played on lots n lots of amps over the years but I always sound like me regardless of the amp. Its something that has been developed over a long time and I used to think of it as "a good thing". I don't really like using lots of effects, never have. The best is when its just me, the guitar and the amp! However, the music business causes us to move forward like a shark or remain motionless and die. Frankly, I don't think that having "myself" come through everytime really works in commercial music. If a listing is looking for an AC/DC sound you'd better sound like Angus and not yourself. So I try to hold back all the time. The next part of that is having Angus' amp. Whatever gets you there and sounds great is ok by me. I just don't buy it that trying to discover new things is bad for anyone's reputation.

Keith

[ernstinen]

If a listing is looking for an AC/DC sound you'd better sound like Angus and not yourself.

LOL! Keith, you are totally correct on that one! I did an AC/DC track on my Strat and Soldano, and tried to get it as close as I could. But smart guys like Mojo told me "You NEED an SG with humbuckers and a Marshall to sound like Angus. Your sound isn't quite there," or something like that. He was correct, but my biggest mistake was hiring a "Bon Scott" soundalike singer, who was close, but no cigar! Cripes, I live in Los Angeles, and heard many singers that NAILED Bon Scott locally over the Internet. By the time I contacted them, they either weren't singing any more or were dead.

So, that's my one vote for modeling guitar amps. I haven't done it yet (stubborn, I guess), but it makes sense for music librararies, which I am now writing for.

Thanks for that observation, Keith!

Ern

[drew]

It's been said that BB King could play a dead chicken and you'd know it was BB King playing that chicken.

[rld]

If a listing is looking for an AC/DC sound you'd better sound like Angus and not yourself.

LOL! Keith, you are totally correct on that one! I did an AC/DC track on my Strat and Soldano, and tried to get it as close as I could. But smart guys like Mojo told me "You NEED an SG with humbuckers and a Marshall to sound like Angus. Your sound isn't quite there," or something like that. He was correct, but my biggest mistake was hiring a "Bon Scott" soundalike singer, who was close, but no cigar! Cripes, I live in Los Angeles, and heard many singers that NAILED Bon Scott locally over the Internet. By the time I contacted them, they either weren't singing any more or were dead.

So, that's my one vote for modeling guitar amps. I haven't done it yet (stubborn, I guess), but it makes sense for music librararies, which I am now writing for.

Thanks for that observation, Keith!

Ern

Ha ha...I remember that. I got a forward for that listing.
I don't have a Marshall or an SG.
I do have a good ear which allowed me to recreate what they wanted with the tools I have.
Good example of the end result being the most important factor.

[Casey H]

Not to beat a dead horse but as a non-performing songwriter, I see an analogy here. It's especially true for ultra high bar Nashville song pitches.

Sometimes we write a song which is good but not "there" yet and feel that with a great pro-demo it will get forwarded or placed. Ask any country writer if they've ever been able to get forwards that way-- e.g. a song where the lyrics need more work or the chorus doesn't have enough differentiation gets forwarded with a kick-ass Nashville studio demo.

In this case, the quality of the demo production is the "Marshall" or "Strat".

That's not to say that for markets that are not as super highly selective like some film/TV pitches, a good demo can't make an "OK" or "good" song better to the point where it can be picked up for some applications. And, for me, there have been times when the only way to really "know" where a song stood was to take a chance with a demo, knowing I may or may not have to do it again.

But the analogy holds. In songwriting, it's the song first.

In film/TV... I have some songs which were very well produced and performed by a top notch guy with a great studio, terrific gear, and credits up the whazoo. And they are even good songs. But they rarely can get a forward or placement because of things like (a) the lyrics being too specific and (b) not sounding like any particular "a la". I could re-write those songs and have them produced by someone else, not necessarily with all those credits and great equipment (and for less money), and get them placed if I addressed the SONG issues as long as the production met reasonable BQ standards. I've done it.

Casey

[mojobone]

I really liked Stuart's post, cuz it ties in with the thing about tone being a journey; you have to use the best gear at some point to be able to really hear yourself and improve, but there's a point past that one where you learn to make your sound on any gear. At that point the gear becomes less important. For example, you hear a Variax in isolation, the differences between the electric guitars are pretty obvious; (especially if you have a good amp) In the context of a busy mix, they're pretty subtle. Furthermore, if I hadn't spent a great deal of time with actual Strats, Teles and Les Pauls, I wouldn't have had the tools to complete the illusion and play the models the way I would play the real thing.

There are lots of roles to play when you're a one-man show making library music; by turns you have to think like a producer, director, engineer, guitarist, drummer, bassist, piccolo player, and if the studio's toilet takes a crap on you, plumber. There's an old saying: the fox has many tricks, the hedgehog, but one; one good one, and I think that describes an artist mindset-do one thing well. There's another dog-eared phrase that may also apply to the chameleons among us; jack of all trades, master of none. I'm shootin' for master of some, heh.

[wta]

Wow, ya! it's the journey or the path really where things boil down to, everyday in the trenches doing the best you got with what you got! I'm right there with ya Stuie. While in those trenches having the soldier beside you saying, "hey I got your back and together we're stronger than on our own" means the world to me and thats why I'll post what I know and feel. I'm greartful to have those soldiers in my life and many are on this forum and part of the reason why I freq here. What is more important that what we do with today? On a personal note all ll I aspire to be here is that soldier covering as many backs I can in whatever way I can.
What is more important that a guitarist's tone I think to myself... Wow, his chops are vital, gear is vital, connections vital and when the rubber hits my road I wrestle to have a tone that will be something that cause listeners, industry pros and other guitarist to say, "Hey that cat has got something...". I was performing last week and I had other region renowned guitarist coming up and checking out my rig, sharing acollaides and that to me is the great honor as a guitarist. Of course I feel that way abouy my studio bass, drums and vocal tracks as well but I can't explaind what great tone does to my soul, good tone is, ah well good but GREAT TONE make me wanna stand naked on a mountain top and rock!!! (Mmm, at least with a loin cloth...) AHHH GOT YA WITH THAT DIDNT I!!! (I think of Jimi's tone or Blackmore or Page and my fav Malcom Young, even when they tune their guitars... mmm, mmm, mmm... wow.)

[ernstinen]

Not to beat a dead horse but as a non-performing songwriter, I see an analogy here.

In this case, the quality of the demo production is the "Marshall" or "Strat".

But the analogy holds. In songwriting, it's the song first.

That's true, Casey. But wasn't this thread started by WTA about "Guitar Tone?" I don't quite see the parallel. And I don't understand non-electric guitarists putting in their 2 cents about something they know nothing about.

Electric guitarists spend their whole LIVES perfecting their instrument and sound. Sure, some are songwriters, but the majority play their own versions of old blues songs. It's their RENDITION, their sound and touch on the fretboard they make their living by, not writing songs.

It's like telling a jazz saxophonist, who has spent all of his/her life playing versions of other songwriter's standards to forget their whole life's work as an instrumentalist to write their own "commercial" music and be like Kenny G. so that they'll make money being heard on "pop jazz" radio stations. They could care less about that. It's the ART they care about, and would rather live in near poverty than bastardize themselves by playing crap.

I'm sure most electric guitarists feel the same way. I do. I refuse to compromise my musical and artistic standards to make a quick buck. If someone likes how I play, great. And it's happening more and more BECAUSE I hold to my standards. If you give up your standards as a musician, you give up your soul. And that is not something I will ever do.

Ern