Not real enough - thoughts welcomed! - TOPIC CLOSED!

[t4mh]

Another thing I'm noticing with this piece, that makes it sound "unrealistic", has nothing to do with the mock-up.

The composition itself seems like it wants to sound like Mozart or Haydn or their contemporaries, but lacks the melodic and thematic development of music of that era. Those composers were all masters when it came to developing a theme, and as a result the listener is literally guided through the piece, the piece "takes you on a journey".
Yours by comparison doesn't do that, you really don't "go anywhere" with your piece, it just kind of sits there, and as a result sounds a bit like a bunch of classical cliches thrown together with no place to go.
Additionally, there are some spots in your piece where the harmonies and voice leading are "incorrect" by the standards of the period (they had a lot of rules for those things, and not following those rules makes a piece sound "off").
In other words, even if this piece was performed by a real orchestra, it would sound "unrealistic" as a piece of music a la Mozart, Haydn etc.

Now if you were NOT trying to write a piece a la the mentioned composers, then in my opinion you have too many musical devices in your piece that make it sound like you were. You'd need to lose a lot of the "classicisms", as it were, to break that association, and the coupled expectations, for your audience.

Just MHO of course...

[As a little aside, lack of thematic development is one of the main issues I hear with a LOT of orchestral music posted here, it really is something people should study more, as it is perhaps the single biggest common thread running thru the history of western orchestral music, from the earliest masters to today's top film composers].


matto

+100 to this

[onelight24]

Well Mr. Hirt both Screener #53 & I, must disagree with you in your assessment! Screener #53 asserted 'On Target for listing', 8's for song structure & melody!

Hello Vincent,
The piece is certainly appealing in terms of composition and arrangement concept. However, for a broadcast quality pitch such as this one, I advise deeper and more expressive imitations of the orchestral instruments. To my ears, the parts could all use a more human character.
Keep up the good work & all best to you.


They also indicated: "the track sounds too synthy for this pitch"

his/her words! This is their expert opinion!

If you read my initial post,

Hello, I was just recently returned on this track for its lack of realism: 'too synthy', 'more humanism', I believe were the terms used! Any thoughts on how to improve realism, would be greatly appreciated!

I am asking for help regarding the production! If you feel that my abilities as a composer has not hit the mark, then that is your opinion, which is therefore not welcomed here, because your intent is misleading & not on point, & certainly not respectful as a "Peer"!
Secondly, If you have a dilemma with my composition, then the right thing to do is firstly speak to me privately, or secondly point out in detail as to the dilemmas you here giving specifics. Do not make general statements! I do ask for input, professional, constructive criticism, which is kind & helpful, as to what I am asking for! I do not expect to have to defend my honor as a composer! That is uncalled for!


Keith, your agreement

+100 to this

feels as if you have some unresolved item to speak to me about, somewhat vindictive, & does not feel kind at all!

Below is for you!

there are moderators here, but they prefer free discussion, as long as folks are respectful of each other. [/b] There are going to be disagreements from time to time...try to be polite, or at the very least civil, and resist responding to those who antagonize you.

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to listen, as your comments were not helpful in the least, I do want to acknowledge my fellow "Peers" respectfully! Its the right thing to do!


Regards,
Vincent!

[matto]

Dear Vincent,

I'm sorry for giving you advice you weren't asking for...I think...

The thing is, I firmly believe composition comes first, so if somebody asks for advice on how to improve the production of a piece of music that I feel first needs more work compositionally, I always tell them.
Most people appreciate such candor, as it tends to save them a lot of time - and often money to boot.

I'm sorry you don't feel that way.

As far as how much specifics to put into a critique, it can be tricky to guage the right amount, especially on a first critique. Had I told you specifically how I thought you should incorporate more thematic development into this piece, you might've considered that intrusive and condescending ("hey, I KNOW how to do thematic development!").

It's been my experience that whenever you try to give advice to somebody who's very defensive about their music, pretty much anything you say will be perceived as an attack.
So it's probably best not to say anything at all. This can be tough when that person is specifically asking for advice; but it is the lesson I take away from this little incident.

Only you can decide if there are any lessons in it for you, as well.

Peace, Mr. Pace. No need to pull out the sword and defend your honor as a composer...


Matt

(Oh and please don't call me "Mr. Hirt", not even my doctor does... )

[onelight24]

Matto, thanks for you apology!

Cheers,
Vincent!

THIS TOPIC IS OFFICIALLY CLOESD!

Thank You!

[Casey H]

Vince
If you don't want negative feedback as well as positive, on any aspect of a piece of your music, don't post it here for feedback.

I do understand it can be unsettling at first when a screener returns a track for reason A and then someone here gives feedback on a totally different aspect of the track, one the screener didn't mention as problematic. I've had to toughen up my skin over the years. Most of us have.

Points:
Criticism of your musical work is not a personal attack on you. It's just facts stated about how someone feels about a piece of music.

Instead of being annoyed that you were given feedback on a different aspect than you were concerned about, take it as free info to consider for the future. What's the harm? No one says you have to agree with it. Maybe some of the comments will stick for you, maybe some won't.

I posted a song a few days ago. Matt was pretty tough on my lyrics. Do I agree with every single thing he said? Maybe, maybe not. But there was great info presented to me and I can keep or sweep whatever feedback I want. Did Matt say I was a crappy lyricist? Shit songwriter? A bad person? A waste of human flesh? No, no, no, no... He said that those LYRICS had issues. Am I embarrassed publicly? No... Because besides whatever else I gain from the feedback, dozens of others who read the post will learn something.... AND...

AND... The last thing I want when I post a song for review is pat-on-the-back, tell me I'm great replies. No value in that. I'd rather have a highly qualified person (such as Matt) be tough on the work. That can help me learn. If I want unconditional praise I can play my songs for my wife and friends.

I often review songs for others whereby I'm as interested in providing general information for all forum readers as feedback for that songwriter. Matt provided valuable information for everyone with regard to that style of music. It's not like he doesn't make a few pennies in this biz, BTW.

Anyway, peace on earth...

Casey

[t4mh]

Sorry Vince. Its not really an excuse, more a reason, I'm just very busy composing and I'm doing this forum about as quickly as I can each day. It can be a time eater. I should have explained myself better. I am not attacking you by any means as a composer and I truely would never want to hurt anyone's feelings. Not only that, I enjoy your work quite a bit. I only agree with Matto in that melodic content and theme development is a hallmark of these particular A LAs. For me, it doesn't work without a strong theme and THAT is the main subject in my own daily composing. You are more than welcome to have your own opinion and sure, the screeners have theirs. I really thought your track would go forward and was quite suprised to even see this thread. It takes all kinds to make a world.

If I hurt your feelings in any way I do truely appologize.

[onelight24]

Thanks Casey, duly noted!

Keith, thanks for the apology!

Thanks again to both of you!


Alright now: TOPIC OFFICIALLY CLOSED!


Thank You!

Cheers,
Vincent!

[utremifa]

Hi Vincent,

I know, this topic is "officially closed," but I promised you another listen when you posted the sans reverb version and I wouldn't want to break a promise.

First, I hope you don't mind if I comment on what matto said about development and voice leading in the classical style and how it relates to Taxi submissions. I believe that we at Taxi must compose with our audience in mind. Even though the listing said "in the style of" not many people in a shopping mall, which this listing was for, would know or care about the difference between parallel fifths or parallel keys or parallel parking for that matter. I don't believe that the people who did the listing wanted an exact replica of the composers they listed. They wanted the spirit of that style and easy to listen to pieces.

Case in point, I made the mistake of writing a piece for that listing which strictly adhered to Haydn's style (I left it up on my taxi site, for reference). Knowing that I shouldn't go too "heavy" I made it a Minuet, which is the lightest movement for a symphony. I believe for a Haydn minuet it had catchy melodies, and I developed my musical ideas the way that I believe were in keeping with Haydn's style . The reviewer gave it four 10's, one 9 and an 8 (for marketability). But, it was NOT forwarded on account that he or she did not feel that it was right for shopping mall music. That's what I got for being too literal and too symphonic.

BTW, many, many great composers used antique styles, as Vince did in his piece, with their own unique harmonic and melodic stamps. Mahler in his Fourth Symphony (Classical), Strauss in his Le Bourgeouis gentilhomme (Baroque), Stravinsky started a whole new movement with it, neo-Classicism (actually it is more like neo-Baroque) and the list goes on and on. Mixing old styles with new can be a fun and enlightening and yield great, unexpected and delightful results. So, kudos for trying Vincent.

OK, lecture over. On to your mockup. Having heard your piece without the extra reverb, I still think your biggest problem in getting a realistic sound is the library you are using. The sound of the orchestra is too large and distant for this style (here I'd call the style neo-Classical). Getting the Platinum samples will help you get the kind of detail and the correct ambience you need. (You may also need to get a really excellent reverb if you don't already have one). In general, I don't hear the kind of "bite" at the starts of notes and the close mic position in Platinum will help you achieve that.

Also, think about what I said in my previous post about tutti passages: with sampled orchestras, less is often more. If you can get the sound you are looking for with only one violin part, than don't double it with violas or more violins or winds, likewise in the wind section, if you need only the flute to get the right sound then just use it and no more.The opening tutti passage struck me immediately as sounding synthy and I think it was a combination of the lack of articulation at the starts of notes and the heaviness of the orchestration.

Finally, listen carefully to as many orchestral recordings as you can and imitate the sound. I like to use reference recordings to make sure I don't wander from my ideal sound, which can happen when you're at the computer for so long and in the thick of things. When I get into the final phase of production I'll play my file back to back with a recording I've chosen as a reference.

Good luck Vincent!

Vince