Not sure how to take this...

[eeoo]

Nice high energy track! Yes, the intro is way too long, I would shorten it to 4 measures max or do away with it completely. The issue with the drums is a tough one because the immediate reaction is to scratch your head a go "but they're real.." but I think the more productive take away is that you fooled an experienced ear into thinking real drums were programmed. I'm not great with mixing drums but to my ear they're over compressed, I'd probably start there.

Hope that helps!

EO

[toddgill]

Good comments in this thread. I'm also guessing Tim's track was tagged as "programmed" not due to the playing, but maybe more due to the mix. The playing is very solid, natural and clean. I would agree the cymbals are maybe a little too compressed and the snare a little tinny. Also, on headphones at least, the ride cymbal almost seems to stand out like it's not part of the rest of the kit.

Matt: Those are all good tips for avoiding repetition and adding variation to move a track forward. I read on a forum somewhere recently (regarding EDM I think) that the way to get programmed drums to not sound stale is to change something about the drums every bar or four bars and avoid copying and pasting. In other words: use elbow grease.

To clarify, when I mentioned the practice of quantizing live drum performances for mainstream music, I did not mean to suggest I or anyone else uses 100% quantization so all notes are moved exactly to the grid and have zero fluctuations in velocity (unless you are going for 1980's Depeche Mode kind of vibe). I assume the use of X% quantization and even randomization of timing and retaining/adding variations in velocity to keep a natural feel.

I also don't mean to suggest I believe that drums are mixed one and only one way. My point was that the current aesthetic in mainstream genres (even those with rock guitar) requires near perfection in the timing of kick/snare so that either quantization is required or the drummer must play with impeccable timing.

The MIDI loops I used in my track were played by real drummers and were not quantized at all. You can zoom into the midi and see all the imperfections and varied velocities of each hit, etc. I'm not sure if the sample lib plays alternate samples on consecutive hits but I believe it does. I think the main problem with my track (for this listing) is that I was extremely lazy and just used the same 2-4 bars for the A section and a different 2-4 bars for the B section, along with adding some simple hits and breaks. Definitely not very band-like!

You could take 2-4 bars of the best groove from your favorite drummer and lay them end to end for an entire track and it would sound pretty stiff and unnatural after 8 bars. I'm slowly starting to realize that we all pick up on exact repetition pretty easily and unconsciously. To me the lesson here (on this side-topic of drum programming) is: avoid too much exact repetition.

[tlever]

There is so much great insight here - thanks so much to all that have contributed. I think those that mention compression nailed it - too much compression on the drum mix bus and on the master, along with possibly too much ultramax/limiting on the master.

I have also been experimenting over the last year with different overhead placements and it's possible the placements for this track weren't one of the better combos which could be contributing to uneven cymbals.

I'm going to work on the mix some more and see if I can improve everything.

For the intro, yeah I knew it was way too long, I was just being lazy. This track has a vocal version as well and that intro has vocals in it which fill it up. In the next mix I'll edit that way down.

Thanks again everyone - you're awesome!