Virtual Instrument Quality

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Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:51 pm

I have recently been getting returns for the quality of my piano and strings samples. I have been using stock Logic instruments.

I am about to pull the trigger on Native Instruments Komplete.

Have you guys had good luck with the strings and piano libraries in that collection?

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by andygabrys » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:19 pm

That's a hard question.

You know that all the stuff that is resident in Logic, and Komplete, and every orchestral library out there has been used in tracks that have been big earners. But the majority of the time they are made in tracks that are completely never heard.

Like take a piano VI - every note is just a piano, sampled to the nth degree. It sounds like that piano played note by note. The Logic Steinway is just like that. Its got a softer velocity where its (arguably) more expressive, and then a harder velocity that if used too much sounds awful. But used as a spice can be very effective.

Instead of looking where you can spend $1,000 on new sounds - consider posting your existing works, the ones that screeners have remarked on as needing better sounds.

Sometimes the thing that is missing is not new sounds, but rather different techniques to employ them. Sometimes it's just that the production quality isn't there and the screener may say "better sounds needed" but it sometimes goes beyond that. Sometimes the piece isn't that creative and even recording it on Tom Wait's actual piano won't help it much.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:01 pm

Thanks for the reply Andy.

Here is a link to one of the tracks that was returned.

https://www.rbbmusic.com/music?wix-musi ... p-kmld9gpw

I'm using the logic Steinway plugin.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by andygabrys » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:15 pm

You could also post the actual listing text including links to reference tracks.

A screener is likely to consider a piece in light of the references. That’s the bar.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:32 pm

https://www.taxi.com/listings/S210331PN


"LIGHT DRAMA" PIANO-Based INSTRUMENTAL CUES are needed by an EXCLUSIVE Music Library that's connected with many TV Production Companies and Showrunners!

IMPORTANT NOTE: This company is brand new to requesting music from TAXI's members, so chances are you don’t have any material in their catalog yet! This is a great opportunity to create a new outlet for your music and begin a new relationship with an awesome company!

This Library is looking for for a bunch of Mid-to-Up-Tempo Instrumental Cues in the general stylistic ballpark of the following references we got directly from them:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3xz7dckh0aty ... t.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2hjt78gsq1g8 ... t.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rudtesrh76x7x ... t.mp3?dl=0


Quoting the Library: "We'd like to hear light drama Cues in a range of moods from sad, to positive, hopeful to dark."

Please submit well-composed, Piano-based Instrumental Cues that could create a light sense of drama in a range of TV show scenes. Your submissions can contain instrumentation in addition to Piano, but it should remain the base and focus of your pieces. Craft your Cues around a singular motif and mood, and create a sense of forward momentum and dynamics by layering instrumentation in and out as they progress. Please be sure that your production and any software sounds or samples you use are high-quality and modern (nothing dated, please!).

TAXI Tip: This Library is NOT looking for huge, building pieces. They want Cues that could help establish a mood in a scene without getting overwhelming. Listen closely to the references to see what we mean by this.

All submissions should be at least 90 seconds long, and can run up to 2 minutes (a little bit longer is fine). Well-crafted, buttoned/stinger endings are required – do NOT submit anything with faded endings. Do NOT copy the referenced tracks in any way, shape, or form. Use them only as a general guide for tempo, tone, and overall vibe. Broadcast Quality is needed.

This company offers an EXCLUSIVE deal. You’ll split all upfront sync fees 50/50. You’ll keep 100% of the Writer’s share and the Publisher will get 100% of the Publisher’s share. You must own or control your Master and Copyright. Since this is an EXCLUSIVE deal, please be sure the material you submit for this pitch is not already signed with other Libraries or Catalogs. Please submit as many Instrumental Cues as you’d like, online or per CD. All submissions will be screened and critiqued by TAXI. Submissions must be received no later than 11:59 PM (PDT) on Wednesday, March 31st, 2021. TAXI # S210331PN

TAXI # S210331PN

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:33 pm

I was going for the vibe of the second reference.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by Telefunkin » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:56 am

Hi Rick, this is all just my humble opinion, and is far less valuable than anything Andy will say, but i hope there's something useful in it.

In your track I hear a grainy sound in the piano. I don't have Logic, so is that how it sounds with absolutely no processing? I might be wrong but I can't help but think there's some plugin(s) 'dirtying' the natural sound. I'd be tempted to strip absolutely everything off the audio path and listen again, then if that grainy sound is still there I'd find a better piano, but if it sounds more natural then be more selective with the processing. I also hear a slightly different piano sound and pan for the last chord, which feels unusual.

Although they're background, the strings sound a little synthetic to me, so I'd be looking for more natural options.

This is not the time to critique your submission, but I can also hear a few things in the music that could have contributed to your return, regardless of piano or string sounds employed.

More generally, Komplete is an expensive package that includes a rainbow of stuff, some of which you might love and some you might never use, so I'd consider carefully whether you really want all that. You don't have to use it or even install it, but if you do install it that's a chunk of hard drive space snapped up. The most useful part of it will be Kontakt, not necessarily for what you get in Komplete but for what you can get from other companies. There's a ton of free stuff, and some of that is quite usable, and there's some really good sample libraries for as much as you'd care to pay. Make sure you keep your wallet open after buying Komplete :).

Also, its horses for courses. If you make EDM you might want a completely different set of tools from when you make trailer tracks. There's is no 'one size fits all' for piano or strings. If you want to simply try something else instead of stock Logic, you could try the free LABS instruments from Spitfire (which don't need Kontakt). You can't expect them to be as detailed and flexible as their top class (and price) instruments but they're a nice taster for comparison with what you've already got.
https://labs.spitfireaudio.com/

I hope some of that helps, but you'd do well to focus on Andy's advice, certainly more than anything I have to say. :)
Graham (UK). Still composing a little faster than decomposing, and 100% HI.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:33 am

Thank you for the feedback, much appreciated.

I have played around with the Spitfire stuff. I have found the free versions don't offer much in the way of articulations for strings and horns.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by andygabrys » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:27 pm

Hey Rick,

Ok - I had a chance to listen. I agree with some of what Graham is hearing. The piano sounds a little Lo-fi in some parts.

Basically - this is my opinion. Keep in mind that I am not a master of all productions. Take this with salt, do some listening, see what is true:

1) Sometimes the reviewers don't explain everything that is "wrong" with the piece for their application. They likely hear straight off that it is not in the "ballpark" of what they are looking for and then they have to try and make a constructive criticism of the piece so that you can go away with that and make a better pitch next time. Virtual instruments are a easy target - most pieces that don't make it have virtual instrument uses that push the limits of what is "believable" considering the limitations of the instruments, even pianos.

2) In your pitch - there are a number of things that could be worked differently and the outcome of the piece would have been totally different. One of these is the virtual instrument - the piano - but its not so much the piano you used but it was the way it was employed. You can look at your piano roll of the piano part in Logic and check out the velocity of all those notes. They sound "hard" and I am going to guess that virtually all of them are 80 or higher on the scale of 0 to 127. Unfortunately the built in pianos in Logic have sampled velocity layers but you are hitting the notes too hard to get that more sensitive sound. If you rubber band selected the entire piano part and reduced the velocity by 40 or so you might have a different outcome and it might be more pleasing.

Now - considering the whole piece - here are some other opinions that you may consider moving forward:

Quoting the Library: "We'd like to hear light drama Cues in a range of moods from sad, to positive, hopeful to dark."

Please submit well-composed, Piano-based Instrumental Cues that could create a light sense of drama in a range of TV show scenes. Your submissions can contain instrumentation in addition to Piano, but it should remain the base and focus of your pieces. Craft your Cues around a singular motif and mood, and create a sense of forward momentum and dynamics by layering instrumentation in and out as they progress. Please be sure that your production and any software sounds or samples you use are high-quality and modern (nothing dated, please!).

TAXI Tip: This Library is NOT looking for huge, building pieces. They want Cues that could help establish a mood in a scene without getting overwhelming. Listen closely to the references to see what we mean by this.


TAXI Tip: This Library is NOT looking for huge, building pieces. They want Cues that could help establish a mood in a scene without getting overwhelming. Ok - not huge build but some sense of forward motion. In most cases that means super minimal > more > more > possibly a break down > most > end. Listen to all three of the reference pieces. How many different elements does each have? How long does each part go on before something else joins in?

Singular mood: pick one - happy, sad, melancholy, whatever. Just stay in that mood for the entire piece.

Singular motif: meaning if the motif is busy, its going to detract from whatever they put over it. If its busy piano noodling, then it competes with dialog. If the motif keeps on changing, that may make it competitive as well. Listen to the reference pieces - all three of them. Get a sense of how many notes long the melodic motives are, how fast they move compared to the harmony, how dense they are, how much they change over the piece.

It also means that a piece could have the form A, A, A, A, end
It could work with A, B, A end

But.....
A, B, C, D, E is likely going to be too complex and you are going to be working too hard to complete that piece rather than staying super simple.

Do the same listening for the harmony - is the harmony changing and the melody changing, or is one thing changing while another stays relatively constant? If there are chord changes, do they sound simple, with simple voicings or are they rich and complex chords?

Please be sure that your production and any software sounds or samples you use are high-quality and modern - this is hard because it is a learning process to make a "modern" production and mix.

How wide is the piano in the refs? Is the melody focused in the center? Do the other instruments wrap around the center?

Basically in your piece I hear:
Complex melody that is fast moving.
Complex melody keeps on changing as harmony changes.
Piece is in C but the one chord sounds like G7/B with no G in it - making it sound like B-7 flat 5 - it sticks out every time it comes around. Part of that is the piano melody - c,b,c,b,c,d,e,f,e - when it hits the f, the base hits hits a B. That's a tri-tone interval. That might work in some styles but it sticks out here.
Piano is playing in the "hard velocity" range and sticks out. Would you play it this way on an acoustic piano? It would drive me nuts to hear myself hammering the melody out on my piano upstairs - by necessity I would play it with more subtlety just so I wouldn't lose my mind.
Piano RH is Center / Right.
Piano Left hand seems a little detached is seems far left. Maybe after the bass comes in you could have that piano left hand do something else very simple and contrapuntal that will give movement with a very simple melody on top. That LH piano could be wide L/R
Mix doesn't feel warm / spacious / modern like the refs. Rhythmic timed delay mixed under so you feel it but don't hear it can work wonders and makes very simple music sound like it has more depth and more layers. Stereo width, space, and actual "stereo" where you are hearing things on the edges of the soundscape make a big different.
Percussion sounds like an acoustic hi-hat. Lots of these kind of pieces use some subtle electronic elements to give percussion movement - sometimes even acoustic sounds that are filtered so they don't have a lot of high end - it can sound "modern" because it doesn't sound like an 70's band.

You can pick apart many things and add them to your concept of how to make a piece that succeeds for the listing. Keep on working on more pieces and try to emulate the space and feel of the refs and you will have some concrete pitches for the next time one of these listings comes up.

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Re: Virtual Instrument Quality

Post by RickBourassa » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:13 pm

Thanks for the feedback Andy. It is much appreciated. I am not a piano player, and this was the first track I composed with piano as the lead instrument.

In one reply, you've given me two months of piano lessons.

I am upgrading my M-Audio Keystation 88 at the end of the week to a Native Instruments S88. It will come with Komplete Select, so I will get some new instruments to incorporate. I will also re-work the track with your suggestions and submit it again for a listing in the future.

This is a great community, and you're feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks again.

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