Dilemma...?? Or am I making a big fuss??

[LalyaPars]

I rarely disagree with you at all, Matt, but I've been using WFH vocalists and full productions for many years and sign these with libraries all the time. I provide the signed WFHs-- all my ducks are lined up from the start. However, admittedly I've never opened a conversation with "I found this singer on Fiverr". I haven't used Fiverr, I use Taxi members and good people I met thru this community, but if I used Fiverr, I'd be sure to get a signed WFH directly from the vocalist, not some generic Fiverr one. I know folks who have done that. What matters you let the library know you have the paperwork.

That being said, this situation is different as discussed. From the get-go, the library may have lost trust because of the original AI vocal presented. The other thing is we don't know what the original listing said. Were they looking for artists to build a long-term relationship with? Someone for quick turnaround to requests?

Layla... If this one doesn't work out, chalk it up as an important learning experience. Sometimes the only way we learn is through our mistakes. What you learned here will go a long way toward future success.

Casey

Definitely learning a lot today thank you everyone for chipping in, I needed that. Now I'll take you guys advice and start working. Just feels like a break through after nearly a year and half of forwards and then a shut down straight after I see my hard work being recognized. It's disappointing but I've learned a lot on what direction to take.

[VanderBoegh]

I rarely disagree with you at all, Matt, but I've been using WFH vocalists and full productions for many years and sign these with libraries all the time. I provide the signed WFHs-- all my ducks are lined up from the start. However, admittedly I've never opened a conversation with "I found this singer on Fiverr". I haven't used Fiverr, I use Taxi members and good people I met thru this community, but if I used Fiverr, I'd be sure to get a signed WFH directly from the vocalist, not some generic Fiverr one. I know folks who have done that. What matters you let the library know you have the paperwork.

Great point, Casey. You're totally right - Work For Hires (WFH) are completely normal and okay, as long as you have your ducks in a row. If you go into a conversation with the library with all the paperwork required, then you're going to be okay. Sounds like Fiverr has an option for this type of thing, which I didn't know. See, even an old dog like me learns new things all the time, lol. But I would also do as Casey suggested, and have the vocalist sign your own WFH document, rather than relying solely on the generic Fiverr template which may or may not be suitable for our line of work (I don't know, as I've never seen it).

AND, to play Devil's Advocate against myself, sometimes there's extra work for a library if you've got multiple people involved with ownership on a single song, as that library owner will have to execute contracts for 2-3 (or more) people for a single song, and that means 2-3 separate conversations with people who might be at various levels of experience. So yeah, in some cases, a songwriter armed with a WFH paper could indeed be easier to get to the finish line than a song with multiple parties involved. Does it sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth?!?! LOL. Maybe just the mention of Fiverr automatically put me in an "amateur" state of mind and tainted my perception. Sounds like they've got ways to handle the WFH situation, so that's great.

But Lalya, I also get your frustration with wrangling up co-writers and vocalists. That can be hard, especially when people don't know you. My advice would be to stick around these forms and make yourself known to the folks on here. Also, go to the Road Rally in November - that's simply the BEST way to meet thousands of like-minded people and engage them in real conversations and meet new singers & collaborators.

~~Matt

[eeoo]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, if I'm a publisher and I see you hired collaborators on Fivver I see a red flag. Not saying that's fair or justified but it's just not a good first impression. If you have your WFH paperwork organized I wouldn't even mention the Fivver bit.

EO

[cosmicdolphin]

if I'm a publisher and I see you hired collaborators on Fivver I see a red flag.

Ironically there are some fantastic musicians working on there. But it's all about perception..better to say " I hired a Pro vocalsist and have all my WFH documents " than " I went on Fivver "

[Casey H]

I agree. No need to mention Fiverr, just have your own WFH agreement signed by the vocalist.

One method that works for me is I tell the library they have 2 choices: (1) Listen to my Fiverr vocalist sing or (2) listen to ME sing. I get 'em every time!

[LalyaPars]

I rarely disagree with you at all, Matt, but I've been using WFH vocalists and full productions for many years and sign these with libraries all the time. I provide the signed WFHs-- all my ducks are lined up from the start. However, admittedly I've never opened a conversation with "I found this singer on Fiverr". I haven't used Fiverr, I use Taxi members and good people I met thru this community, but if I used Fiverr, I'd be sure to get a signed WFH directly from the vocalist, not some generic Fiverr one. I know folks who have done that. What matters you let the library know you have the paperwork.

Great point, Casey. You're totally right - Work For Hires (WFH) are completely normal and okay, as long as you have your ducks in a row. If you go into a conversation with the library with all the paperwork required, then you're going to be okay. Sounds like Fiverr has an option for this type of thing, which I didn't know. See, even an old dog like me learns new things all the time, lol. But I would also do as Casey suggested, and have the vocalist sign your own WFH document, rather than relying solely on the generic Fiverr template which may or may not be suitable for our line of work (I don't know, as I've never seen it).

AND, to play Devil's Advocate against myself, sometimes there's extra work for a library if you've got multiple people involved with ownership on a single song, as that library owner will have to execute contracts for 2-3 (or more) people for a single song, and that means 2-3 separate conversations with people who might be at various levels of experience. So yeah, in some cases, a songwriter armed with a WFH paper could indeed be easier to get to the finish line than a song with multiple parties involved. Does it sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth?!?! LOL. Maybe just the mention of Fiverr automatically put me in an "amateur" state of mind and tainted my perception. Sounds like they've got ways to handle the WFH situation, so that's great.

But Lalya, I also get your frustration with wrangling up co-writers and vocalists. That can be hard, especially when people don't know you. My advice would be to stick around these forms and make yourself known to the folks on here. Also, go to the Road Rally in November - that's simply the BEST way to meet thousands of like-minded people and engage them in real conversations and meet new singers & collaborators.

~~Matt

Commercial use is an extra add on... Fiverr doesn't offer WFH documents so I'll need to send them a form to fill out and send back to me saying I've got the commercial use. That's what they told me when I enquire... so even though I purchase it I'm still going to need that WFH form. Now that I know this I'll be prepared. I live in the UK I want to come this year but I don't think I can come.... Thanks Matt I'll try and come next year.

[LalyaPars]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, if I'm a publisher and I see you hired collaborators on Fivver I see a red flag. Not saying that's fair or justified but it's just not a good first impression. If you have your WFH paperwork organized I wouldn't even mention the Fivver bit.

EO

Good point, I definitely won't be doing that anymore.

[LalyaPars]

if I'm a publisher and I see you hired collaborators on Fivver I see a red flag.

Ironically there are some fantastic musicians working on there. But it's all about perception..better to say " I hired a Pro vocalsist and have all my WFH documents " than " I went on Fivver "

Learnt my lesson, I'll keep my mouth shut from now on and just have the paper work when needed

[LalyaPars]

I agree. No need to mention Fiverr, just have your own WFH agreement signed by the vocalist.

One method that works for me is I tell the library they have 2 choices: (1) Listen to my Fiverr vocalist sing or (2) listen to ME sing. I get 'em every time!

Thank you everyone, I'll definitely be coming on here more often. And I can't wait to meet you all at the road rally hopefully next year.