Writing Hit Songs - Myths

[ggalen]

I think a huge factor in this discussion is that we are all musicians and producers and recording engineers...we hear music differently than the typical listener/audience member. We get puzzled by their happy reaction to what we hear as crap or weak songwriting.My wife's way of hearing music reminds me of this. When she comes into the studio and I play her and A/B comparison of something I've just improved, she often can't hear whats different. (Trust me, it's different ).She loves music, but she loves the overall FEEL of something, the big picture. Kind of like I concentrate on syllables and she hears sentences and paragraphs.Consequently, she overlooks slightly off key singing or tunes that are a bit monotonous...if the overall effect moves her.That's what success in the mass music business seems to be about: getting the overall feel right to give the average person a good feeling.And that's why Billboard hits may not be great songs MUSICALLY or lyrically, and still can sell millions and make millions.Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, Spice Girls...they give their particular audience a good feeling. That's what sells the tickets after all.In many ways, film/TV/soundtrack work is a different animal... musicianship counts.

[davekershaw]

Quote:we hear music differently than the typical listener/audience member. I remember John Lennon saying that very same thing: "musicians hear music differently". That really struck a chord (excuse the pun) when I heard it.

[rcase]

Quote:And I agree with Andreh's comment - even if I try to emulate someone else - and I often do, in listening to a la's and taking inspiration from their sound - I am always going to end up sounding like me. And we wouldn't want it any other way Vikki!Wonderful, thoughtful, articulate post. Thank you so much.

[rcase]

Quote:And maybe song quality is a relatively minor factor, as long as the song is a solid, AVERAGE song geared to the current market. With good connections and a lot of luck, and somebody with money and marketing muscle who personally enjoys the song, (and thus officially dubs it "great"), they can push it onto the charts...Maybe. And I think the only ones who might get to slide by with these 'average' songs you mention are those directly connected to the project (artist, producer, etc). Those of us on the outside must bring something truly spectacular to even have a chance of getting heard.Rob

[jchitty]

Quote:I think a huge factor in this discussion is that we are all musicians and producers and recording engineers...we hear music differently than the typical listener/audience member. We get puzzled by their happy reaction to what we hear as crap or weak songwriting.My wife's way of hearing music reminds me of this. When she comes into the studio and I play her and A/B comparison of something I've just improved, she often can't hear whats different. (Trust me, it's different ).She loves music, but she loves the overall FEEL of something, the big picture. Kind of like I concentrate on syllables and she hears sentences and paragraphs.Consequently, she overlooks slightly off key singing or tunes that are a bit monotonous...if the overall effect moves her.That's what success in the mass music business seems to be about: getting the overall feel right to give the average person a good feeling.And that's why Billboard hits may not be great songs MUSICALLY or lyrically, and still can sell millions and make millions.Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, Spice Girls...they give their particular audience a good feeling. That's what sells the tickets after all.In many ways, film/TV/soundtrack work is a different animal... musicianship counts.You guys are all true musicians, while I am mainly a lyricist who puts a melody to my words. I didn't even learn how to play a musical instrument until two years ago when I was forced to take up the guitar so I'd know some chords when I sent off my songs to demo studios. Some demo houses will just take a CD of you singing a cappella and not ask for the chord progressions, but a lot of demo places want them, and I couldn't say, 'well duh, I don't even know a C from a G! I only know about 16 different chords, but enough to get me by....some chords to create my melody, and I work with Band In a Box. (pitiful sometimes, hehe) But the BIAB software can work with my chord progressions and come up with even better ones, so that helps me a lot. I use BIAB for mainly for making rough demoes that collaborators and demo studios can work with.I didn't start writing songs until two years ago, and crazily (is that a word, haha) enough, I've become fairly prolific since then, writing over 120 songs to date....they are probably mostly crap, but I'm doing it. I think I always had a musical soul.....it just surfaced later in life.But I have to say that sometimes writing has been a curse....'coz everytime I have demo made now, (not with my collaborators of course, hehe) I can hear flaws in the music! And now when I listen to songs on the radio, I can hear flaws too....I used to be like your wife, just listening to the music and not noticing certain things.It's a curse and a blessing at the same time, that is, to be a songwriter. I long for the days when I just listened to the song.

[ggalen]

Chits,You should feel no shame whatsoever about using Band In A Box (BIAB). It is my absolute favorite tool. I can get a song framework going in minutes with it. And with a solid groove going on the chords I specify, my creative juices start naturally flowing for melody, leads, lyrics.I make absolutely no apologies for BIAB. I spent years doing my own drums and bass parts to lay down a framework, and I find BIAB much less time consuming, more varied and capable in many unfamiliar styles, and MUCH more fun.And I now tend to leave BIAB midi parts in the song if they work. Sometimes I replace drum parts with ezDrummer later. Or do my own bass parts later if the song needs it. But often BIAB parts are OK and remain.Example: the link at the bottom of this post for "My latest song". The drums and bass are Band in a Box. I did the lead and rhythm guitars and keyboard synth arrangement. Heck, there are a couple of 16 note synth-guitar arpeggios that BIAB had added... that I just left in there because it worked! I think it works better for demos, or backing tracks for my live performances where something else (me) is the main focus. But sometimes on other things you can leave some of its parts in there, I think. Depends on the song.

[rcase]

Quote:I'll respectfully use our good friend Hummingbird as an example.I have seen her music improve 100 fold over a few years. This was accomplished in my opinion by listening with an open mind, taking in the advice of people like Matto and Mazz, and sharpening her aim and abilities toward what the clients are asking for.So there it is, she is writing "for the market" and guess what? The market is responding. She now gets regular forwards, and has signed deals. In time those deals will lead to more and more placements.Not trying to hijack the thread (God forbid it doesn't make it to 20 pages), but isn't it great to witness her progress? I can even say I got to observe matto's ascent as well (Despite the modest post #, I've been lurking around here for a long, long time ). Now back to our topic. Boobs. There it is, pure and simple.This will post around page 8, but I'm still back on page 4 and I've figured this one out. What's with you people??Rob

[Casey H]

Somewhere along the course of the saga of this thread, I thought I read some folks making reference to film/TV successes in the same context as writing hit songs.Writing for film/TV and writing for a "hit" song (defined in one way as making the Billboard charts) are not the same. That doesn't mean they don't share common elements. Better songs still place better. But, in film/TV, if a song is well produced, sets the right mood, has some lyric lines that do well brought to the foreground (unless instrumental), and has other qualities, it can succeed in that arena. That same song pitched for a Nashville artist could get ripped to shreds for a number of reasons.Song pitches to artists for target as future "hits" are scrutinized to an extreme degree, and like it or not, most of that scrutiny revolves around meeting standards that the industry sets. Those standards include perfection in form and structure, incredibly well crafted lyrics, and/or sounding like today's current hot artists.I want to make sure no one misinterprets what I am saying as you can write bad songs for film/TV. They still have to be very good. Success as a songwriter for film/TV vs. for artists have different criteria.I hope I am making sense... Down a quart on coffee this morning... Casey

[gongchime]

The point about asking someone to pick which variation is the best and musicians hearing things differently reminds me of when I still thought it might be helpful to ask a non musician which variation they like best. Out of a whole slew of very different stuff it all sounds the same to them. Crickey! 2 or 3 times of that was enough for me. Now I don't bother. We can aurally visualize what the completed project will sound like, they can't even hear the difference between this and that. Never throw pearls before swine prior to being finished polishing them.

[jchitty]

Quote:Chits,You should feel no shame whatsoever about using Band In A Box (BIAB). It is my absolute favorite tool. I can get a song framework going in minutes with it. And with a solid groove going on the chords I specify, my creative juices start naturally flowing for melody, leads, lyrics.I make absolutely no apologies for BIAB. I spent years doing my own drums and bass parts to lay down a framework, and I find BIAB much less time consuming, more varied and capable in many unfamiliar styles, and MUCH more fun.And I now tend to leave BIAB midi parts in the song if they work. Sometimes I replace drum parts with ezDrummer later. Or do my own bass parts later if the song needs it. But often BIAB parts are OK and remain.Example: the link at the bottom of this post for "My latest song". The drums and bass are Band in a Box. I did the lead and rhythm guitars and keyboard synth arrangement. Heck, there are a couple of 16 note synth-guitar arpeggios that BIAB had added... that I just left in there because it worked! I think it works better for demos, or backing tracks for my live performances where something else (me) is the main focus. But sometimes on other things you can leave some of its parts in there, I think. Depends on the song."Traveling By Night " is great, you did a good job with that one! One advantage you have over me is that you can play instruments with Band In a Box and incorporate them into your demo. I don't play my guitar very well, so I have to rely solely on the software generated sounds. However, I'm getting much better with Band In A Box, and my demoes are starting to sound a little more authentic even though I don't play real instruments. For months, I only used the 'style' generated tracks....I didn't even know how to utilize the patch feature. I'm learning all these new features now. I don't think the BIAB manual is easy to understand, so I finally went to You Tube for some of their BIAB tutorials, and that really helped me. As for getting to the point where I can use other software in conjuction with BIAB, I'm not even to that stage yet, except that my husband has helped me use Nero along with it. Sometimes, we take a BIAB instrumental track, put it in Nero, and then I sing with a new and better mic. It improves the quality of my vocals of course. But mostly, all I use is BIAB to make my demoes. Recently, I actually made a demo of one of my BIAB songs, and I have submitted it to a listing. Squids and Steve Davis heard the song, and they liked it, so I guess I'm doing okay. I'd like to get the 2008 BIAB version....I write a lot of country, and the steel guitar sounds they have are so authentic sounding! It's greatly improved from the version I purchased last year.I'm still a novice at this, so green that I don't even know what terms to use sometimes, but I have learned how to use BIAB, and I'm getting better everyday. If anyone wants to take a listen to my BIAB demo, it's on my TAXI page...it's the next to the last song called, "Without the Likes Of You." Warning, this is a country song, hehe, but I thought it was a pretty good target for the Star de Azlan listing whose influences are Patsy Cline. I have no illusions...this demo is better than my previous BIAB demoes. However, people big on production will see this as lacking. And of course, my vocals ain't Squiddy's or Hummingbird's, hehe, but I did the best I could. But what the hey, it's only five bucks for the listing, and it's worth getting a critique for the song alone. I have heard of instances in the country listings where they look more for the song through the production. I do know it's always the wise thing to put your best foot foward though. Here's my TAXI page link:http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.php?userid=2572