Vocal Training

[hummingbird]

Quote:Wow this is quite a discussion !!I've never had a vocal lesson in 25 years of singing...My method was simple...sing,sing, sing, sing...In the car, in the shower, mowing the lawn, washing the car, washing the dishes and anywhere you can belt it out.... Not to mention 3 to 4 nights a week doing live gigs of 3 X 60 min sets...50 tunes per/night...The voice is a muscle and you need to exercise it...Practice makes it happen ! IMHO. Cheers ! Nothing wrong with that. However, there are many people - even in this community of musicians - who don't feel comfortable with the sound of their voice, and/or don't have the confidence to sing in front of an audience. Some people have had some vocal damage they need assistance in overcoming. Others have had psychological trauma (like being told in front of a class in school not to sing) they need assistance in overcoming. The prerequisite for them learning how to sing is a passion to sing and a passion for music that will motivate them to find & release their voices, as well as a willingness to do the work -- which requires personal awareness & honesty. Many people find, as I did, that as they discover what is holding them back from singing in the way they dream... they see it is the same thing that may hold them back in some areas of their lives. Thus working with voice becomes a catalyst for change & personal growth.Quote:I would think that well-done CD or DVD lessons would be better than going to a poor vocal "teacher" who doesn't know what he or she is doing. Particularly if the poor teacher has a forceful, persuasive personality. All the better to hammer in the wrong technique!I don't have proof, but I strongly suspect there are no shortage of poor vocal coaches out there looking to make a some extra money, or even a living, from teaching voice lessons when they cannot get enough singing work.Ideally, I'd think one would choose a vocal coach by listening to her/his students before and after their training and hearing the difference!... and by talking to the student to see how much they enjoyed working with the teacher.I'd say go by actual results and reputation; not by a degree or some other piece of paper they have on the wall in the absence of results and proof of ability.All good points - except, just because a method is delivered by CD or DVD doesn't make it good. It's simply a one-size-fits all approach & some of these methods do more harm than good, particularly because there is no one to help if instructions are misunderstood.I started a new student last week with the same gentle beginning exercises I do with everyone, just to have a place to start. She came back and was forcefully aspirating before vocalizing and was pushing the voice harshly upon initiation. Even though we had gone through the exercises carefully, she had misunderstood & practiced them incorrectly. If I was not there to help her, she would continue to sing in that manner & not only would she sound extremely mechanical & harsh, but she could in a short time damage her voice. This is exactly why I cannot agree with a delivery method that doesn't include regular observation of the student at practice.... never mind that it is not composed to be focussed on their individual needs.In all cases, I would never recommend working with any teacher who is forceful & persuasive. That means the teacher is 'selling' their method, and not listening to the student. Always, the method must adjust to the student. The student, and the students' voice, must lead. A teacher should be encouraging and knowledgeable and you should feel the difference in your singing right away... how easy it is when things are coordinated effectively.I meet with prospective students for a (free) hour before scheduling a lower-cost intro lesson. I discuss my approach (not 'my method') and philosophy. I tell them I consider myself part singing teacher, part music therapist, and part creative guru. I tell them I don't have lesson plans, or a curriculum, or grades. I simply listen to where they are now, in the moment, & use my intuition & experience to suggest a path we can walk today. In the intro lesson they are introduced to my approach as we work on some simple exercises that begin to awaken their awareness of their instrument & we discuss how it works, and what it needs from them in order to be all it can be.Just my Saturday morning thoughts on this discussion. I think this is a good thread and I thank ajenkz for starting it.H'Bird

[ajenkz]

http://www.voicecouncil.com/Blog2/VC2_01070806.aspxI suggest you read over that and many of the other articles. You continue to put down the one size fits all methods, yet you ignore the fact that I teach in other methods. I mention video and your down on that to. From my experience, its worked for me and thousands of others. For people it doesnt work with, they can go to someone else or come to me for private in person training. Most of the downloadable things will be stuff that CAN work for anybody, such as style exercises, basic warm ups, placement, etc.You've done a fine job promoting your own methods, but just because they are right for you doesn't mean they are correct for everyone. Your a very fine singer, but when I listen I can't hear you ever pulling off a soulful R&B song or power driven Rock song. Thats my issue with a lot of teachers who teach more traditional methods; they preach it can work for anything, but when you listen to their own voices, they can't pull it off without sounding odd. Same thing can be said with me singing classical; it sounds awful because I don't know the rules of the genre so I choose not to deal with it personally or with my students.Again, I respect your experience and ways of training, but I expect you to also respect mine instead of cast a negative light on everything I bring up. If its a matter of thinking downloads are unethical, preach it to the authors of the other millions of products, if its my inexperience, I noticed you only had 2 more years of experience than me when you began teaching. I just think the whole vocal community needs to work together better rather than debating everything that comes up and people being closed minded about it.

[hummingbird]

Bear in mind that all my comments are general and are not directed specifically at you. At no time did I say anything about your methods or your teaching. It is you that brought up classical teaching and made the statement that classical teachers are not as scientifically educated as others, and I do disagree with that, for sure. I think the majority of voice teachers are woefully uneducated, and I think you agree with me on that. At no time did I say my approach was "better" than yours, and I specifically said, that if someone came to me and was interested in singing styles that I am not familiar with I would recommend they find a teacher familiar with those styles, did I not? I'm sure I did. So if someone came to me and wanted to learn to scream, then I would advise them to find someone like you, as I do not teach that. How does that make me close-minded?And I am not trying to sell anything. I have no CDs or DVDs to sell. I don't advertise my services, other than with a website. No one on this forum even lives in the same town as me. I am expressing my views of what voice training is and how it should be done. I spoke respectfully, giving my opinion of what works best. It is my opinion, and I have the right to express it. You are taking my remarks as a personal attack, when what I am doing is enjoying discussing something I am passionate about - the human voice.

[ajenkz]

I'm not taking anything as a personal attack, i'm just pointing out that you do seem to be in disagreement with ways of teaching that have helped thousands of people. I believe there are more people for training in unconventional methods than against. No hard feelings, i'm just pointing out some things:)I realize what you said about style, but like your site says, your technique can be applied to many different styles. Thats good if it truely can and especially if you don't try to force certain habits out of pop singers that are really needed to be legit. However, in my experience (not talking about you since I don't know how you teach) most people with classical training cringe at the sound of a nasal/breathy/raspy tone during a song. If this is done during an exercise when its intended to be a clearly produced tone then I agree, but if its during a song for stylistic purposes, theres no need to force the singer to create a clear and consistent tone. Any form of pop music is very conversational, so you'll have those things utilized to emote. Also, if a teacher can't sing halfway decently in a certain style they are working with, its best to only work on the basics then pass them on to someone better trained in that area, like you said.Again, i'm not attacking you personally, and I respect you very much. I just feel like the way you have expressed your view on any training done outside of private instruction is very much based on your own experiences. I'm sure i've studied this way more than you have, so I can see the good (and bad) at training this way, so I do think its wrong for someone to refuse to see it as a useful way of improving your voice.As far as my statement on classical teachers, its a general comment. However, you'll find that most university teachers are using techniques dating back hundreds of years and ONLY those techniques. Its best to mix those in with vocal anatomy knowledge and modern technique to really produce a well rounded technique. If I didn't know about things such as the vocalis muscle (thyroarytenoid), the cricothyroid, etc., the exercises I use and progress I make wouldn't be nearly as efficient. It really helps to know the science behind things to teach. But you are correct, 90% of vocal trainers know nothing and are not cut out to teach.

[johnnydean1]

Quote:I'm not taking anything as a personal attack, i'm just pointing out that you do seem to be in disagreement with ways of teaching that have helped thousands of people. I believe there are more people for training in unconventional methods than against. No hard feelings, i'm just pointing out some things:)I realize what you said about style, but like your site says, your technique can be applied to many different styles. Thats good if it truely can and especially if you don't try to force certain habits out of pop singers that are really needed to be legit. However, in my experience (not talking about you since I don't know how you teach) most people with classical training cringe at the sound of a nasal/breathy/raspy tone during a song. If this is done during an exercise when its intended to be a clearly produced tone then I agree, but if its during a song for stylistic purposes, theres no need to force the singer to create a clear and consistent tone. Any form of pop music is very conversational, so you'll have those things utilized to emote. Also, if a teacher can't sing halfway decently in a certain style they are working with, its best to only work on the basics then pass them on to someone better trained in that area, like you said.Again, i'm not attacking you personally, and I respect you very much. I just feel like the way you have expressed your view on any training done outside of private instruction is very much based on your own experiences. I'm sure i've studied this way more than you have, so I can see the good (and bad) at training this way, so I do think its wrong for someone to refuse to see it as a useful way of improving your voice.As far as my statement on classical teachers, its a general comment. However, you'll find that most university teachers are using techniques dating back hundreds of years and ONLY those techniques. Its best to mix those in with vocal anatomy knowledge and modern technique to really produce a well rounded technique. If I didn't know about things such as the vocalis muscle (thyroarytenoid), the cricothyroid, etc., the exercises I use and progress I make wouldn't be nearly as efficient. It really helps to know the science behind things to teach. But you are correct, 90% of vocal trainers know nothing and are not cut out to teach.Instead of pontificating why don't you let us hear your voice.It's as simple as that!When you started talking about selling your teaching method I thought that at least you waited until you were about thirty posts in but after a quick check you were making noises at about post 4 or 5 so we have had fair warning that you are here to sell!I don't think arguing with Vikki will win you any friends here or more importantly as far as you are concerned,customers.

[ajenkz]

Right now, recording is impossible due to health problems; its out of my control so I just have to wait until I can get back to recording.I'm not here to sell. If someones interested, thats fine, if not thats fine. I brought it up on the 4th or 5th post because it was an introduction post. I read the post about introducing yourself AFTER I had already posted, so I thought it was only proper for me to post one and let everyone know what i'm all about.I didn't come here to argue. I asked a question, had a different opinion thrown out, I stated my opinion, and we had a discussion. If I disagree with someone, I will get my opinion out there, but still respect others opinions as well. I do have respect from the people who have contacted me through private messaging and other means to give their input on what I should include. I'm not looking for customers here, I was just surveying a different group of musicians about what might be useful. Notice I didn't post any links or other information to how to get in touch with me for lessons...the reason being because that was not the point of this post. I always give background information because it makes more sense to do that rather than making a post just saying "What do you need to work on vocally?".

[johnnydean1]

Quote:Just a question for any of you interested in vocal training.What kinds of things do you need to work on to improve your own voice?As soon as I can, i'm going to be finishing up the first set of recordings for my site. On my site, one of the features will be mp3 exercise downloads. People will be able to buy individual vocal exercises for whatever they want to work on. This is something a lot of people have asked me to do in the past because instead of taking in person or online lessons, they'd rather just get what they need when they need it. Each exercise will come with either an mp3 file with the description and examples or possibly a written description, with only the exercise its self being on the audio file. I could just read from the script, but I think it might be easier for people to go back and read the stuff, and then click on the exercise to hear how it sounds as they read along. Which would you like better?Along with that, you will get a piano scale mp3 to practice along with.So like I said, what kinds of things would you like to learn? A lot of people are asking for screaming stuff for rock/metal so there will be a full line of downloads for that, and also different exercises to use as warm ups. Basically what do you need help with? Intonation? Breathing? Power? Tone? Flexibility?Also, there will be an FAQ section, so if you have any vocal technique questions feel free to post them here or send as a private message.I'm not trying to sell the stuff, just trying to get an idea of what kind of stuff people want to work on in general. When i'm teaching privately, all kinds of different problems come up that the individual needs help with, so its hard to pinpoint exactly what would help the most people. ?

[ajenkz]

Last paragraph says it all.I give the full description so that people will know the set up of how it will be working. That way, they will know that for this particular system, my limitations. For example, I can do exercises that go with scales, but some kind of breathing exercise for example that requires you to SEE it wouldn't work. Also, they can't be things too individual, it has to be somewhat general, or else it wont be effective. If someone has something rare they need work with, that suggestion wouldnt be of much use; it would be better for them to work with someone privately.This is the kind of research I need to make the most out of my site, and I figured this would be a good place to ask.

[johnnydean1]

Quote:Right now, recording is impossible due to health problems; its out of my control so I just have to wait until I can get back to recording.I'm not here to sell. If someones interested, thats fine, if not thats fine. I brought it up on the 4th or 5th post because it was an introduction post. I read the post about introducing yourself AFTER I had already posted, so I thought it was only proper for me to post one and let everyone know what i'm all about.I didn't come here to argue. I asked a question, had a different opinion thrown out, I stated my opinion, and we had a discussion. If I disagree with someone, I will get my opinion out there, but still respect others opinions as well. I do have respect from the people who have contacted me through private messaging and other means to give their input on what I should include. I'm not looking for customers here, I was just surveying a different group of musicians about what might be useful. Notice I didn't post any links or other information to how to get in touch with me for lessons...the reason being because that was not the point of this post. I always give background information because it makes more sense to do that rather than making a post just saying "What do you need to work on vocally?". 1sell Pronunciation:\ˈsel\Function:verbInflected Form(s):sold \ˈsōld\; sell·ingEtymology:Middle English, from Old English sellan; akin to Old High German sellen to sell, Greek helein to takeDate:before 12th centurytransitive verb1: to deliver or give up in violation of duty, trust, or loyalty and especially for personal gain : betray —often used with out<sell out their country>2 a (1): to give up (property) to another for something of value (as money)Have a look at 2.

[ajenkz]

Not sure of your intention with the definition, but it doesn't matter. I've stated my reason for the original post several times, and this is all a misunderstanding of intentions. The fact that Vikki can share her opinions and be fine is good, but the fact that when I also share mine im being argumentive and i'm pontificating is unfair. This is a thread that I started to get feedback of what peoples most common issues were vocally, so that I could utilize them and improving my teching. It turned into a discussion of different schools of thought, which like I keep saying is fine. Whats not fine is overlooking my other posts seeking help on the forums, and saying im here to promote a service and argue on technique.